126: From UX Layoff to Leadership: How Duncan got hired as a Global Head of UX after a restructure

INTRO: [00:00:00] Hey there. I’m Sarah Duty, host of the Career Strategy Podcast. Many professionals are seeking more impact, flexibility, growth, and let’s face it, getting paid what they’re worth. But how do you unlock this in your career? It starts with strategy. I’m taking you behind the scenes of what’s working for my career coaching clients.

You’ll hear strategies and actionable yet sometimes against the grain advice for how you can be the CEO. Oh, of your career and stop dreading Monday’s ready to level up your career. Let’s get after it.

Sarah: Thank you all for joining us. So, 1st of all, we have, uh. Duncan he recently got hired as. A global head of product design, which maybe he’ll tell you more about. Duncan is, I believe, from London, right Duncan? Did I get that right?

Duncan: I work in London. Yes.

Sarah: Okay. Yes, based in London. [00:01:00] So, let’s dive into kind of our initial round of questions here. Tell us, like, a little bit about what you’re doing now and what you were doing kind of before you joined Career Strategy Labs.

Duncan: Perfect. Thanks, Sarah. It’s really good to meet everyone. Uh, hi everywhere, evening, evening, afternoon, morning, et cetera. So, my name is Duncan Abel. I I’ll go back to why I joined Strategy Lab. Yeah. It was because I’d, uh, left the previous company where they had a restructure which meant that, I was let go, if you like.

It knocked my confidence a lot, but it also gave me, uh, the time to review who I was, what I was doing and I needed some kind of format around understanding what the world looked like in terms of being able to go and find a job. And that was with discovering the right way to speak the right way to act the right [00:02:00] methodologies and getting some sort of framework around how I presented myself.

I went to the strategy lab and that helped me get on the path to interviews. I took a couple of interviews and was very fortunate to get. The role that I’m currently in, which is actually head of UX and content at BSI, which is the British Standards Institute, which is a global organization and I’m currently in that role, having come in to look after or develop a UX team.

As well as look after the launch of a website that was halfway through a process and stuttering. And they, said, bring someone in there. You can actually drive this and deliver it. And that that’s pretty much what I did. And I’ve inherited a little bit of brand now as well due to.

Other organizational changes as well. So it’s it’s quite a mixed role. But it also has a basis and a really secure foundation in UX

Sarah: and correct me if I’m wrong, but I would [00:03:00] imagine, you know, because it sounds like part of this role involves. building a team. This could be a role that you could kind of maybe be at for a while in that if you’re hiring the team, they may want to make sure you’re there to manage and nurture the team also.

So do you feel that way? Or what’s your hunch so far in the role?

Duncan: that’s a really good question. So, yes, there is definitely a desire to build out a team and what what is termed a memory muscle within the organization. User experience is not something that the organization has as a as a foundation.

And what, what I hear a lot and I’ve heard this in previous organizations is that we have an inward out attitude. So we, we’re very familiar with our own expertise, but not very clear on how a user actually relates to us and how they consume. So to build that team is going to be at the [00:04:00] crux of actually selling our products and services correctly.

So, yes, you’re right in terms of understanding the organization better, playing that back inside the organization and then building a group of people around that and it often comes to not just bringing people in, but actually transforming teams and individuals and making them advocates of user experience.

Sarah: Awesome. Well, I’m glad it’s working out so far. Thank you. Yeah. All right. So,

I’m wondering, are there kind of overarching mindset shifts that stood out, you know, unique to you during your time in Career Strategy Lab

Duncan: I think it’s so easy to get into your own echo chamber. I think that that reflects in both your work itself, trying to get the job is you just find yourself going round and round and I remember being in the. uh, in some of the sessions and hearing people say, is it good enough yet?

And I’m just redoing this bit. [00:05:00] And yes, you can continually refine, but it, it distracts and detracts away from what you’re really trying to achieve. And I think what, what happened on the course was there was a real sense of people getting a precision and accuracy as to a reflection in what their core skill was, which is what you’re saying, Sarah.

I, I came at, you know, I, I came up the course with 20 years of experience. And I didn’t know what to do with it. I didn’t know what it, what it was that resonated. I didn’t know how to sell it. And I, I literally had no confidence to be able to bring it forward and say, this is what I do. So the course gave me that structure.

It also sent me on a routine. It also made me aware that I was. I was the one who could make this happen. Not a nice picture on a page. Not it’s been laid out slightly differently. It was literally, I have to understand my core because that’s what someone’s going to buy from me and to do that in a community and hear other people do the same thing was [00:06:00] incredibly powerful because you’d hear something in someone else and they would talk about, you know, do what you just said, Jayden, I’m incredibly good at selling and organizing a team.

You know, that just resonates. That’s part of being a good UX person. It doesn’t have to be specifically, I’m great at doing a prototype. It’s, it’s the wraparound of how you fit in into the organization that’s trying to find you. And you can find that quite quickly. Once you start identifying those You can see it in the, in the job description that’s coming back at you.

So, yeah, I think, I think being part of a community and having that bounce back of other people saying the same thing as they’re going through that process was such a strong feeling.

Sarah: Yeah. I think part of what I think you’re saying, and I’ll, I’ll just reiterate it is, you know, when you are not just doing this on your own in a, in a silo or vacuum, it’s, it, it makes.

It ensures that you don’t get [00:07:00] stuck in those, like, cycles of negative thinking and doubt and things. And when you’re able to recognize, no, like, I may have 2 years of experience, 12 or 22 years of experience, but at the end of the day. Everyone struggles with the same things when it comes to, you know, the job search and interviews and things like that.

And so I think that’s kind of a big. Part of it, I think, just letting go of that feeling that, you know, you are the only person that struggles with this. So I just really wanted to highlight that point you made and the fact that, like, you said, you’ve been working for 20 years and, you know, it doesn’t get.

easier, but in your case, like part of the challenge is how do I package up and present 20 years of experience in something that is still going to be digestible and effective for recruiters and hiring managers?

Duncan: Yeah, it was very much that. And it it was interesting when I went to the [00:08:00] interview, there was a real sense of, I turned up with a balanced confidence, which I hadn’t had in a long time, mainly because I’d stripped myself back and I knew what I was going to say.

And it was the kind of confidence that I often see in sports people when they, they practice enough that they can just get to the interview and not have to fret about what they’re going to say. They have all that, they’ve done that understanding. And you come in and you just go, okay, I’m getting a question.

Let’s let’s just take a breath. And all of that came out and I could feel myself in the interview, just performing at a level that I hadn’t had in ages. So it was, it was fascinating to get that, that confidence in myself.

Sarah: Yeah, I think it’s, you know, that, that confidence and I think that confidence is somewhat created by the process of making your resume, making your portfolio, et cetera.

And. Going you know, below the [00:09:00] surface compared to what, you know, your previous resume or portfolio may have been communicating. So, even though it feels like the task of resume portfolio, et cetera, are just so much work. It’s not just about the actual documents. It’s about. Then being able to go into interviews, as you said, much more confidence and almost like an out of body experience, right?

I’m wondering, like, how is this happening compared to past interview experiences?

Duncan: Yeah, totally. And I think two points there for me. One was, I remember one of the first projects I did was the mentor, stripping down to who your mentors are, your real mentors, which I think you’d, you’d done when you came out of a previous job.

And I, it really resonated with me that, okay, so this is the real me. And I still come back to that and still mentioning a lot to people. And I think. The second part was getting to the interview and selling myself. So [00:10:00] being able to say something in a way that I could genuinely sell something and, and not feel like I was just spouting it because that’s what I thought they wanted to hear.

And doing it in a way that didn’t sound boastful. It just sounded like, I got asked to do this because I’d succeeded on the previous project. I felt more confident than the minute I went through that. And it was directly related to the fact that I had that underpinning structure. So yeah, it was incredibly powerful.

Sarah: One of the things that Duncan just mentioned was this kind of mentor, we call it the mentor model inside Career Strategy Lab. And it’s In kind of the 1st sprint that you go through. So if you forget or or don’t know. Career strategy lab is divided up into these 5 sprints, for example, resume portfolio.

Job search interviews, but the 1st 1 is your career roadmap and it’s like a product roadmap for your career. And so 1 of the [00:11:00] activities in there is kind of. Identifying people that you are inspired by or that you want to emulate because oftentimes, you know, when you do that it helps. You get clarity on on the future of your career, so I’m curious for our panel, you know, thinking back to that first sprint, the career roadmap sprint.

Does anything stand out, you know, in hindsight, I know it may have been a while ago, but had you ever done anything like that before? Or what do you think the impact of that sprint was on, you know, this whole journey?

Duncan: for me, the, the one where we write the elevator pitch.

Sarah: That first one. Yeah,

Duncan: that was the first time that I synthesized down everything I was doing. And I, I reread the mo the model, the example that, that’s given in the, the sprint over and over again, and it started creating a.

a different way of being able to present. It was succinct. It [00:12:00] was purposeful. It was it was actually based on what I wanted to

Sarah: do.

Duncan: And once I had that kernel, that anchor, I, I knew that everything else that was coming from that would be on the right path. And One thing that you do get when you’re inside the community and inside the course, is you get a proper perspective on what you’re trying to do.

And you get, you can get rid of the noise around it. And I think that noise gets in the way a lot. You know, the noise of you talk about it on the course of job sites of responses that aren’t right of people telling you that, you know, you’re great, but, you know, maybe you didn’t do that. Whatever it happens to be all that noise goes away.

And you focus and I, I think, you know, that going back to that, that one sprint that gave me absolute focus and accuracy. And it was really, really meaningful to be able to put that in place and then anchor for the rest of the project.

Sarah: Yeah. I like how you refer to it as an, [00:13:00] an anchor and you know, we, we interchange what we call it, but we officially call it this compass statement elevator pitch about me, but like the idea of a compass or an anchor that really like guides you and grounds you.

In decision making, so that, you know, if it does come down to a situation where you have multiple job offers, you can refer back to this anchor compass statement and say, okay, wait a 2nd, which of these job offers aligns best with this. This compass statement, and it comes up quite often when people tell us they got hired and the, the value of being able to refer back to that as a filter is so huge.

Yeah, and I think if you do get to an interview and you present yourself, it presents you more authentically. That gives you a sense of. Reflection in the the person interviewing you feels like they’re going to miss out because [00:14:00] you know that you’ve made a connection. It’s quite an interesting role reversal that happens.

You know, 1 of the questions we are asked quite often is. Like, will career strategy lab work for me if I’m outside of the United States? And so we have Duncan, based in London, but.

Sarah: Kind of before I give my take on that, do you have thoughts on, like, the the relevancy of career strategy job? And if, you know, being in a different country mattered, if anything.

Duncan: Uh, so I’m massively curious anyway, so I was, I was curious to see whether it was any different, but the, the obvious statement being I’d worked previously in the States anyway, and globally, so.

I knew that, you know, the language of user experience is universal. So, to, to think that the course was going to be geared towards a certain niche was I didn’t think it would be a very good course if that was the case. And it certainly early, [00:15:00] early understandings meant that it, it was, it was a good course.

it was singing to me in terms of reflecting the right information, presenting the right structure taking me on the right journey and giving me the right credentials. That, that was universal. It didn’t, you know, it didn’t require any kind of translation. In terms of time scales it was easy to join.

So much of it was self learning as well. There was a lot of feedback. There are a lot of people who came online at different times, and that was actually really useful for me as well. So I could chase the sun a little bit. And genuinely, I mean, I remember downloading the app, uh, and just feeling quite, I would get up in the morning and see responses.

So there would be that, that feeling of a community. And I, I don’t think there’s anything similar in the UK, certainly not. I mean, I looked around quite a lot. I used a lot of research before I got to a decision. And the, the thing that chimed with me to bring me in was, Declining a [00:16:00] status, you know, you, you absolutely nailed my persona which was, which instantly made me think, you know, about personas, therefore so I made all those connections and, and that’s, that’s universal.

It didn’t matter which country I was in. I would say as well from my position now of employment and, and, you know, building a team and bringing in interviews everyone is coming from around the world and hybrid working means that there is that ability for a much wider network. So. You know, I can categorically say that it didn’t matter at all that it was in a stateside base.

It was just as good as anything else. So it’s great.

Sarah: Going to, I’m going to pose one last question,

So the last question I have is if you could give someone one piece of advice, let’s imagine they joined career strategy lab, or maybe they’re on the fence. So decide, you know, which, which way to answer this. But if they just joined, what’s one tip [00:17:00] you would give them?

Or if they’re on the fence, what would you say to them?

Duncan: I, I think that you owe it to yourself having had career time to actually give, give yourself pay, payback or, you know, in a financial way. It, it seems really silly, but I, I’d done the same. I’d gone to a couple of people said, you know, what kind of tasks can you do?

What, what, what advice do you have? You know, all the soft things, but, but what ended up happening was that I would go back and spend a lot of time researching. And it was light research. It was, it was actually time wasting because all it would do is throw out more questions. There was no direction to it.

There’s no structure to it. And that actually that. Compounds your feeling of I’m getting nowhere. And that’s a lot of self pressure. So why not turn that around, invest in something and then know that you’re actually compelled to to drive yourself on that program. And to do it with CSL, I, I’d done research.

I’d [00:18:00] looked around. I’d actually seen a portfolio that stood out weirdly. I don’t know whether that person had come from CSL, but, but the minute I went on the course, I went, Oh, that’s where it all comes from. And it was like magic. I mean, it was ridiculous. It was like, Magic that I knew I had in me, but I haven’t got to.

And it’s, it’s exactly like when you’re inside an organization and the organization tries to design its own brand. Never do it. You always go externally because it doesn’t work. You can’t see it. You can’t see the wood for the trees. And Don’t go with the cheapest because they’re going to design you, you know, the thing that comes out of, I’m going to type in some words and it will spit out a couple of logos for you.

You know, it, it, it’s, it’s that world that you can potentially find yourself on the path of, and you will go to interview after interview if you’re lucky enough to get there and you won’t get there. If you dedicate and you actually invest in this, in a program like this, I mean, I, [00:19:00] I got confidence back from CSL.

I got structure from CSL. I got expertise and community. And genuinely, I, I got clarity of who I was and that, that’s not something that you’re going to get from and we can make your portfolio from you. It wasn’t that shallow. It was, it was so much deeper. So yeah, for me, I, I, I couldn’t advocate enough for, for joining.

Sarah: Well, thank you for sharing these tips. I think they’re going to be really helpful for anyone who might be on the fence or for anyone that. That does decide to join, , let’s give a big thanks. To Duncan for giving us their time and just they’re really candid and honest feedback. I think it was a big encouragement to a lot of people just in general related to their career and job search and the job market and.

The prospects of, you know, being able to. Find that next opportunity that really, really aligns with what they’re looking for.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to the [00:20:00] Career Strategy Podcast. Make sure to follow me, Sarah Doody, on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, or LinkedIn. If anything in today’s episode resonated with you, I’d love to hear about it. Tag me on social media or send me a DM. And lastly, if you found this episode helpful, I’d really appreciate it if you could share it with a friend or give us a quick rating on Spotify or review on Apple Podcasts.

Catch you later.