Natalie got hired for a Director level UX role (and now she’s the one hiring for UX roles)

Sarah (00:00)

we are here today because I said that I was going to be interviewing.

Someone who has been through Career Strategy Lab. And so we have Natalie Kerz, and we’re gonna get into all the details of Natalie and what she does and how she got hired. a couple of quick little housekeeping items for you all. there should be a questions feature. yes, there is. So use the questions feature. Sometimes the chat goes a little too fast for me to catch the questions.

Natalie Kurz (00:14)

Thank

Sarah (00:32)

so that’s there for all you. We will keep an eye on it. And I’m gonna reserve time at the end for myself and for Natalie to ask questions. But if I see anything that I think it’d be valuable to address in real time, I will try and keep an eye on the chat. So that is our game plan for this open house for career strategy lab. So

Natalie, I would love for you to give everyone just a little bit of introduction about yourself, especially around like what do you do within user experience? how long have you have you been in the field? and tell us about this new job, and then we’ll get into the story of how you actually landed it.

Natalie Kurz (01:05)

Thank

Yeah, absolutely. So I’m Natalie Curries. I’m based out of St. Louis and been doing UX for, gosh, 25 years now. It seems like yesterday, but a long time. both in-house and in agencies, worked for the federal government. So kind of have a broad background in terms of the types of places that I’ve worked. Mostly, I would say, in the SaaS software realm, as opposed to like e-com commercial.

I’ve done some of that, but it’s mostly been more internal types of things, specifically within financial and healthcare. But again, running the gamut all over the place. And yeah, I’ve doing probably spent the last 10 to 12 years as a people manager, which I really love. And that was really important to me as I was looking for new roles. And yeah, let’s see what else. So I kind of started my journey with CSL. I was laid off last May.

And so, you know, like a lot of people, think have been in that situation more recently. And or even if, you know, they’re just looking for their next opportunity. But I came across CSL on LinkedIn. I saw some posts and I think we had some friends in common. And I was like, you know, maybe this is something I should look into because I had actually joined another kind of career strategy group before joining CSL that was very focused on executive level, like

senior director, VP level, but it was across all different types of industries. And so I thought it’d be really interesting to pair that with something that was very focused on UX and design. So I definitely can kind of talk about how the two of those compared and there were a lot of differences and things that I was able to walk away with.

Sarah (02:32)

Mm.

Yeah, that that is something I hear quite often. People will mention they considered other programs or did other programs. one person who got hired, I don’t know if you remember Kellen, but her partner was actually a career coach, and she said, The advice is good, but it’s not specific to UX, right? And so I think that’s one of the differentiators that

Doesn’t mean you can’t learn great things from other places, but there is such value in having a true UX lens on your UX job search.

Natalie Kurz (03:19)

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah (03:21)

you got hired, it was in November, right?

Natalie Kurz (03:24)

my first day was December 1st. I’ll say, so I ended up, I would say I applied for about 70 jobs over the course of six months. I think it was September, end of September, early October that I got like the first call with NextGen. And we went through several rounds and I knew at the end it came down to myself and one other person, right? They had told me then, so we did another round of interviews.

Sarah (03:26)

Right.

Mm.

Natalie Kurz (03:48)

yeah, I was just super happy when I got that call. I remember I was in line for my son at school in the car, right? And I didn’t have a lot of time to process it. And I was just like, I’ll you back. But yeah, it was call and opportunity to figure out. So yeah.

Sarah (03:55)

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

it’s a remote role, right?

Natalie Kurz (04:07)

It is remote, yeah. And that’s something I’d say is unique is that I’ve been fully remote for, gosh, 10 years now, so way before COVID. So that’s something that was a really huge requirement for me was staying remote, not just because that’s kind of the way the world was going. was just that’s the way I prefer to work. It’s what works best for me. And it certainly opens up a ton more doors in terms of where you can work.

Sarah (04:26)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Kurz (04:31)

Yeah, it’s a fully remote company. I’ve got a team in India and then a team in the US that I manage.

Sarah (04:35)

And I’m I’m curious, you said you applied to about seventy jobs over the course of six months. how did that compare to previous job searches in terms of number of jobs that you were applying to?

Natalie Kurz (04:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, so this is actually the first time I found myself without a job, right? Every other time I’ve kind of decided, hey, it’s time to move on. And I’ve maybe looked for another opportunity, secured that before leaving my previous job. So it’s been a long time since I’ve kind of been open in the field with really no safety net and kind of just I need to find a job mentality.

Sarah (05:01)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (05:10)

from what I’ve, know, and again, following lots of other folks, knowing lots of other folks who are in the same boat, you know, some people were talking about putting in a thousand applications in that timeframe, right? And I think that’s one of the key things early on that CSL really helped, because I was definitely doing like the spray and pray, right? Like anything that I think I’m remotely qualified for, even like IC roles, even though being a people manager is really important to me and is something that I wanted to continue in my career growth.

Sarah (05:21)

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (05:39)

myself that all of these things would be okay. Cause I just needed to land a job. And so I think that’s, remember in the first part of CSL, that was one of the key things is like the look within yourself. What do you really want? What are your strengths? What are you good at? And just focus on that because competition is already so rough, even at the things you’re really good at. And so for me trying to pitch myself, let’s say working at eBay.

Sarah (05:42)

Right.

Natalie Kurz (06:03)

with my background, not to say I couldn’t do that job, but I’m not going to stand out as a candidate at eBay with the background that I have. And so it really helped me focus on, here’s what I want. I really wanted to focus on health care. I knew I wanted a people management job. So there were some very specific things that I start narrowing in on. And that really helped because then I wasn’t wasting time filling out all of these workday applications for things that.

Sarah (06:10)

Right.

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (06:26)

really even if they had turned into something I probably wouldn’t have been happy with.

Sarah (06:29)

that is so important, right? Because there would be nothing worse than accepting the job. And then three months in or three weeks in thinking to yourself, my God, I have just made a big mistake. And the mental and emotional just I don’t even know the right word, like daunting. Yeah, that daunting exactly.

Natalie Kurz (06:31)

You did. Yeah.

Just the impact. Yeah, yeah. And then I’m going to start all over, right? And then it’s like, this isn’t the

right place. I got to start over. you know, and I was fortunate in that I had, you know, I had some savings and I, my partner was still working. So I wasn’t in any, you know, and again, everyone has their own circumstances, you know, totally get, if anyone’s like, I just need a job. I don’t care what it is. You know, I was fortunate that I was in a position where I had some time to be able to really focus and hone in and look.

Sarah (07:11)

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (07:11)

for something that I really wanted and that I wanted to be a long-term.

Sarah (07:15)

Yeah.

Well, and in applying to, you know, fewer roles, but more of the right roles, I’m curious, how much were you able to kind of nurture and tailor, you know, those applications for the role?

Natalie Kurz (07:33)

Yeah, that was definitely a big piece of it. I ended up having, would say, probably five or six different kind of starting templates, right, based on the type of the role, the size of the company, the focus of the company, right, and all of those types of things as a starting point. I also have a background in journalism and content and writing. And so my current job, I’m actually the director of content and design, which was actually

Sarah (07:39)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Kurz (07:56)

I think a distinguishing factor of why I was able to get this job is they needed someone with both skillsets. So that was something a lot of my early drafts didn’t really highlight as you know, something that set me apart. And so that was something else and going through like the skills assessment and the other types of activities that I did with CSL. And I think even some feedback on my resume from some of the coaches there, they’re like, this is something really unique. You should lean into this and highlight you have this background.

Sarah (08:20)

Mm.

Natalie Kurz (08:22)

And it was something to me that was somewhat of a throwaway experience, if you will. led content teams, I’ve done lots of content strategy, it didn’t feel valuable in that regard. And so I think once I started tailoring that, that’s a key piece I think of why I got the role I did is because it does straddle both of those areas.

Sarah (08:33)

Mm.

I love that you mentioned that because that that purse, the first part of CSL that you mentioned, that step of basically doing a little bit of user research on yourself, right? And thinking about what have I done in the past? What do I d wanna do in the future? But also I think that the key for you was having other people look at you and help you see the things that were maybe blind spots, like

Natalie Kurz (08:53)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (09:07)

that journalism and content experience, right? Because it it sounds like if you had just been off by yourself somewhere, as you said, you would have kind of just like shoved that experience to the design and not or to the side and not given it the, you know, elevation that it needed to maybe help you separate from other people.

Natalie Kurz (09:21)

Yeah.

Exactly. I kind of took it for granted, As opposed to thinking this is something that sets my skill set apart. And even just thinking about strengths, whether it’s in the people management or solving problems or all of that sitting down and kind of thinking through what is it that makes my experience unique and how can I tell that story, right? And even approaching it from a journalistic standpoint of how can I tell a good story?

Sarah (09:29)

Exactly.

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (09:52)

Right. And that’s, think, a big piece of it, whether it was in the cover letter or even in just the formatting of the resume itself. And certainly into the LinkedIn profile. I know you all spend a lot of time kind of coaching through, you know, the headlines of the LinkedIn, the banner space. I remember I just had like a generic picture. So using that space to benefit. I don’t know if you ever heard the story, but actually the very first interview I got was from a recruiter.

Sarah (10:10)

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (10:17)

for Sam’s Club of all places. And he specifically said the reason he reached out to me was because he liked my LinkedIn profile. He liked how honest and earnest it was. He’s like, you seem really scrappy. Like it just stuck out to him, which I thought was really interesting. again, it was for the in-person Sam’s Club like shopping experience, right? So the digitizer, that is not, I would not be looking at myself for that role, right? So I was kind

Sarah (10:31)

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (10:42)

And I actually made it through several rounds there. And they said I would have made it onto the next round, but they actually hired someone right at the end term because it was kind of some rolling interviews there. But I was surprised, honestly, to get that message.

Sarah (10:52)

Mm-hmm.

Well, it’s it’s such a great example of how when you especially optimize your LinkedIn profile, it can literally bring people and opportunities to you like while you sleep, right? And I think so many people, even you with a content and journalism background, you know, we all just stare at LinkedIn and it’s not until someone says to you, Hey, your LinkedIn profile is like,

A web page you need to SEO. And even if you do the basic, like it will make a big, big difference. and you’re not the only example. We’ve had so many people come through CSL and in a similar situation, have recruiters, have chief product officer, have CEO reach out to them because something about their LinkedIn profile caught that person’s eye. And

Natalie Kurz (11:30)

Right. Yeah.

Sarah (11:47)

even before like they landed on the profile, somehow your profile showed up in that person’s search results too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (11:53)

Right. Yeah. Or in the comments. That’s another thing is

aging and other people’s comments, posting, you know, your own types of things. I remember there was something I posted around inclusion in hiring and just some best practices and whatnot that kind of, for whatever reason, took off a little bit. And I ended up getting a lot of eyeballs on my LinkedIn as a result. Right. And connected to quite a few people.

One of whom I actually just hired. That’s actually, I just hired a design manager and he’s a connection that I had made on LinkedIn. And I’d seen his comments and I’d posted on comments and we kind of interacted a little bit and then he put his resume in and I was like, this is actually a great fit. And I could see, so it’s not like I saw his comments on LinkedIn and I’m like, ooh, that’s the guy. But I saw his comments on LinkedIn and said, I like this person. I wanna work with this person.

Sarah (12:20)

wow.

Yeah.

Right.

Natalie Kurz (12:44)

And then the resume and the interviews and everything did the rest. But it was, I don’t want people to downplay the power that LinkedIn has as imperfect of a tool as it is, right? There are a lot of ways you can use it. And that’s actually, we had talked a little bit before, that’s how I, part of how I got the position I’m in now at NextGen is I saw the ad and I was like, you know, this is a good fit.

Sarah (12:56)

Yes, yes.

Natalie Kurz (13:07)

healthcare, it’s internal, they’re going through kind of in this transfer, like the beginning of a transformation phase to have me really excited and it’s content plus UX. And I was like, okay, this feels like it could really be something. And so I just looked through the, you know, who else works here, who’s, know, and I blindly reached out to one of the lead designer on the team and just, you know, very

Sarah (13:19)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Kurz (13:31)

politely just said, hey, I’m interested in applying for this. If you’ve got five minutes, I’d love to just pick your brain. And he immediately went back. He’s like, yeah, happy to meet. Right. So it was just, again, and, and I had done that quite a bit of reaching out to folks, whether it was a hiring manager, sometimes if I could find their info or another person in the department, or maybe someone I actually did know that maybe worked in a different department and had a lot of conversations over the course of those six months with various people who worked there.

Sarah (13:48)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Kurz (13:57)

But he was really nice. We ended up talking for about 40 minutes or so, but got along great. And he kind of left the conversation saying, you know, I think he’d be, and I would have been his manager, right? So they were happy. So he’s like, you know, I think he’d be a great fit. You know, happy to kind of give them a thumbs up for me. And yeah, then a couple of days later, the recruiter called me and said, we want to bring you in for an interview. And then.

Sarah (14:06)

Okay.

Natalie Kurz (14:17)

when I talked to who ended up being my boss, who was the first one I interviewed with, he’s the CTO. And he said, know, so and so said he, you know, you guys knew each other, he spoke highly of you. So that that’s, you know, a plus in my book. So he even acknowledged that having that little bit of a thumbs up from somebody he respected that worked there was a was a big boost.

Sarah (14:24)

Okay.

it’s it’s such an important for message for for job seekers today because you know the the job market is all over the place as we all know, and it just reinforces how important relationships are in your job search and just something as simple as sending a message to someone on LinkedIn you know, ultimately led to you getting hired there. and I’m curious, thinking back to different times.

Natalie Kurz (15:01)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah (15:05)

when you were moving between companies. is that something you had done in the past, like reaching out to people, or was that new this time around?

Natalie Kurz (15:12)

I think,

yeah, a lot of my other roles have been blind kind of applications, right? Where I just put in an application, I didn’t know anyone there, you know, and then worked my way through. So that was kind of a new, it was scary at first, right? I’m gonna reach out to this person I don’t know, am I gonna say something stupid and it’s gonna actually hurt me in the end?

Sarah (15:24)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (15:38)

Are they going to think I’m annoying? Right. So all of those things go through your head and you overanalyze. And in the end, you know, you only, you don’t, know, you can only miss the shots you don’t take. Is that the saying? So like that, right. So it was like, if he doesn’t respond, I’m still going to apply and you know, we’ll see what happens. Um, and there were definitely times where I even, even connected with someone I did know that I’d worked with previously that like did put in a recommendation or a thumbs up or a referral.

Sarah (15:47)

Yep, yep. Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (16:06)

and then I still didn’t get interviewed, right? So again, it’s never, never a guarantee, but it also just doesn’t hurt to try.

Sarah (16:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. And I’m curious, for other roles that you applied to and got interviews, did did any were any of those kind of maybe attributed to having some type of connection with someone at the company or were those pretty kind of blind, if you will?

Natalie Kurz (16:18)

Mm-hmm.

It depends. the one I got with Sam’s Club was from a recruiter. And I think I only ended up with like three or four interviews. Like I didn’t necessarily have the highest conversion of like applications to interviews. But I know I interviewed with another company where I’d reached out to someone I used to work with and he was there. He put in a, you know, a referral and I did the interview with the recruiter and that went great. And she’s like, I’m definitely going to put you through. And then I interviewed with the hiring manager.

Sarah (16:32)

Right.

Natalie Kurz (16:54)

completely bombed the interview. got off the phone and I’m like, well, that was just disaster, right? Like just, I don’t know what it was. He asked me a lot of questions that I really wasn’t prepared for. It was just a very different kind of interview. And it was also one of those where I think our, like our just vibes didn’t match, right? And again, that’s hard to put any kind of quantitative figure on, but like at the end I was like, you know what? I don’t know that that’s a person I would have even wanted to work for. Cause like, just, just wasn’t a good

Sarah (16:59)

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (17:20)

a good match. So I wasn’t too bummed when I knew that didn’t work out. I’m trying to think what else. There was another interview I got because of a comment I made on someone’s post. He actually ended up hiring me as a freelance editor for a book he was writing as a side project for a couple of weeks. And then he ended up working somewhere. He’s like, have role that you might be a fit for. When there’s some interviews, didn’t end up working out for that. But that was, again, of a LinkedIn.

Sarah (17:31)

Mm-hmm.

no.

Natalie Kurz (17:47)

knew each other through a, it was on a post of my former boss actually, that he knew and I knew and so that’s how we had gotten connected. But trying to think of the other interviews. There might’ve been one or two others that I did. Those are the ones I remember in terms of interviewing and then at NextGen. So.

Sarah (17:55)

Right, right.

Right.

speaking of like relationships, now that you have been in the role as the director of experience design and content at NextGen for a while, you’ve actually hired, at least on like a contract basis, one person from Career Strategy Lab. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Natalie Kurz (18:07)

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, So I knew when I joined the team that there was going to be opportunities for growth, right? That it was a small team, they needed to grow. And then I actually ended up losing two designers. So definitely had a need for some hiring. And the first thing I did was actually reach out to some folks that I had worked pretty closely with at CSL. mentioned Jonathan. So there was a…

Sarah (18:42)

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (18:43)

gentlemen, Jonathan and I, who just, again, had been on a bunch of CSL calls and kind of were in the same point in our careers, right, of being at this director level, this people management level. It’s hard to, like, put together a portfolio, right, to talk about, like, your leadership, but also your hands-on skills. So we kind of started bonding on that. And him and I set up a reoccurring meeting. We’d meet every Friday and we’d spend an hour to two hours talking through our websites or our portfolios or our job apps or just commiserating.

And so reached out to him. He had actually already landed a role, which was great. But then kind of thought about who else at CSL have I, you know, there’s a lot of people that I would see continuing, you know, see kind of periodically on calls or frequently on calls. And I was trying to make mental notes of like, I was really impressed with this person, right? I thought they asked thoughtful questions. They seemed to have a lot of good experience. So I reached out to someone and he’s like, yeah, I’m interested. And I’m like, great. And at the time with contractors,

there really wasn’t even an application. was just like, my boss is like, whoever you need to hire, just go hire for a contractor, right? So was able to bring him on and he’s still there. So we’re, you know, we’re still working together and he’s been fantastic.

Sarah (19:46)

Yeah. I think it’s just such a great example of number one, the power of relationships, but also the power of the commute the community inside Career Strategy Lab. Because I say this all the time, but like we have been at the point where a what for a while where now alumni are hiring each other. and I never thought that far ahead when I was creating this.

When I was creating this whole thing five years ago. And now here we are, you’re hiring people. other companies have hired multiple people. And I think it’s such a great reminder for everyone that in whatever communities you belong to, how you show up in those communities can make an impression on people. And then when someone like Natalie is hiring,

She remembers that person asked really interesting questions on calls. Like I kind of like the way they think. And that could be the thing that like makes Natalie email you and say, Hey, are you interested? Right.

Natalie Kurz (20:44)

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, and it’s one of those who kind of never know where an opportunity is gonna come from, right? So whether it’s a LinkedIn post or a, know, reach out to a stranger on LinkedIn or a CSL call or even former colleagues, right? Again, it’s good to kind of keep an open mind and, you know, use the connections where you can, right?

Sarah (20:50)

Yes.

Natalie Kurz (21:07)

I even reached out to people that I hadn’t talked to in 15 years. And it was just like, hey, we used to work together at so and so. I see you work at this company. Would love to learn more. And sometimes they never read it. And sometimes people respond back like, yeah, I remember. I actually reconnected with someone that I used to work with who then

Sarah (21:10)

Mm.

Natalie Kurz (21:25)

commented about something that I had posted on Facebook. And she’s like, wait, was that you? And like, we started this whole like sidebar conversation that she had seen me on Facebook doing, you she’s like, I didn’t know you were doing that. And so yeah, you just never know who you’re going to reconnect with. And when those connections, you know, may come back.

Sarah (21:29)

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, I like to call that microwaving relationships. Like you never know, someone you worked with five years ago, fifteen years ago might see a Facebook post or a LinkedIn comment or something. And that’s the thing that just serendipitously brings them back into your world.

Natalie Kurz (21:44)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly. you have, you know, I like to think that most people generally are good natured and want to help people where they can. you know, I think, you know, again, if somebody I put myself in their shoes, but if someone that I worked with 15 years ago reached out to me and I enjoyed working with them and I thought they were good, like, absolutely, I would take a phone call with them and make a recommendation. Right. Or at least maybe if I didn’t think it was a good fit, guide them maybe toward what might be a better fit. You just never know.

Sarah (22:20)

Yeah.

Yep. Yep.

you said something and I wrote down always be ready, and I forget exactly what you said. I think it had to do with just never knowing when relationships might bring opportunities to you. And so I’m curious. do you do you feel like you are ready? Like should

Natalie Kurz (22:36)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah (22:44)

You’re happy where you are, but should some opportunity come into your inbox tomorrow, right? do you feel like you could pounce on it with kind of the collective of your resume, your portfolio, your linked, et cetera? Do you feel like, my God, I need to rush to get get things ready to go again? I mean, you it’s only been a couple of months since you’ve been hired. Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (22:48)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

It’s a good question. I mean, I think I would feel a lot more prepared now for my next job search than I did when I was kind of forced into the last job search, right? I think it also puts me in a better spot. Just reminding myself, like, document the things that you’re accomplishing and take screenshots of the things you’re designing, right? And just like those types of things like help set future me up for success.

Right? So even if I’m not looking now, even if I’m not looking at five years from now, having when I am looking for the next opportunity or the next opportunity happens to come my way, having all that already built is save so much time. Cause I can’t tell you how much time I spent going back and going, okay, I think I might’ve had a screenshot somewhere in my email box from six years. Right? Like, and just kind of go back and go like, well, what did I actually accomplish? And where are examples? So,

Sarah (23:47)

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (23:52)

it’s definitely a good reminder, you know, to, help, to, document those things, keep track of those things. They’re also good for just internal reviews and bonuses and all that kind of stuff, just to keep track of your own accomplishments and the accomplishments of your team. But it was a really good reminder to like continue doing that and not just to like settle and be like, I got a job. I don’t have to ever think about that until I have to think about it. And then you have to scramble. No.

Sarah (24:11)

Yeah.

Yeah. You

you mentioned performance reviews. And I think I’ve heard this from other people who’ve been through Career Strategy Lab in that, you know, they feel a lot more equipped for performance reviews. And there’s actually been people who, you know, got hired and then got promoted, and they said it was because I, as you said, got into that habit of documenting things and I was able to kind of use parts of my portfolio or even just

the the storytelling element of being able to talk through projects and impact. So it’s not always just about getting hired, it’s kind of the compounding impact of what we do in Career Strategy Labs.

Natalie Kurz (24:53)

Absolutely. Yeah. And that storytelling piece, as you mentioned, the portfolio, you know, I didn’t have like a static portfolio prior to CSL. I had a website and I felt like the case studies there were good, right? Like I think they focused generally on the right things. But going through the steps with CSL and putting together the PDF portfolio really helped me hone in on that storytelling aspect. like, what am I trying, you know, with three seconds, what am I trying to get across? And I’ll tell you, having just gone through

Sarah (25:18)

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (25:21)

The other side of that, hiring several folks, you know, and one of the things as somebody who was hiring was I was like, okay, I just went through this. How could I make this easier for all the people applying? Right? So like the first thing I did was I wrote on LinkedIn when I posted the job and I said, here’s what I’m looking for. Right? Like here’s the things that I’m weighing. Here’s some tips about applying. And one of them, think came from CSL, which was like, if the bullet point on your resume could be said by any other designer, it’s not specific enough.

Sarah (25:31)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (25:46)

And I had several people write back and like, I’m rushing to redo my resume right now as a result of this. But I made the promise and I did look at every single resume that came in, there were 632 of them. But I opened every single one, didn’t spend a lot of time necessarily on every single one. And then quite a few of those looked at the portfolios and yeah, you got three to five seconds to catch someone’s attention. And so again,

Sarah (25:51)

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (26:09)

I actually did, came across, think it was two that I could tell were CSL portfolio. Must have been previous folks. So I’m like, this is exactly how the CSL portfolios are structured. So I took note of that. But yeah, it really is how can I quickly encapsulate who I am and what I bring to the table. And that’s really what it came down to at the beginning. And then once I was like, yes, I see that, then you dig into more of the details.

Sarah (26:13)

How nice.

Right.

Natalie Kurz (26:35)

I will say, and this is something as an applicant I struggled with is like, I can’t tell you how many times I ran like my intro paragraph through Claude and through ChatGPT and edited it and changed this word and modified this and like, none of that ends up mattering in the end, right? It’s just, can you tell this story? Can you grab that attention? Whether I said this word or this word, you know? And again, I won’t say it doesn’t matter because potentially if something’s going through like keyword screening,

Sarah (26:53)

Right.

Mm.

Natalie Kurz (27:00)

of that stuff you got to game through. The system I was using didn’t do that. But yeah, just having been on the other side now looking at all those resumes, was like, okay, that was probably wasted time agonizing over that one word.

Sarah (27:02)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think AI can make us overthink a lot of stuff. I don’t want to turn this into an interview about your perspective as someone who’s hiring, but I know a lot of people are gonna have this question, which is you know, you had six hundred and thirty-two, I think you said, applicants off the top of your head. What were either some things

Natalie Kurz (27:16)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah (27:34)

that made people stand out and like gave you a signal that you wanted to interview them or look at their portfolio. or on the flip side, you could answer it through the lens like, what were some red flag mistakes that people were making that was just obvious. I mean, I know you said like bullet points that just could have sounded like they were on s anyone else’s resume.

Natalie Kurz (27:41)

Thank you.

Yeah, I think the generic bullet points was a key one. I would say another thing that didn’t really matter to me was like the visual aspect of it, right? So whether something was really pretty or just very, I mean, still need to be clean and I need to able to read it, but like whether it was quote, designed or not to me didn’t really make a difference. Sometimes it actually made it harder to dig into the details. I think having enough detail is important. There were a lot of resumes that were

so high level that I was like, have no idea what this person does, right? Or there just weren’t enough details there. was so much of a summary. So I think for me, the key was, know, there were very specific things I was looking for for these roles. Like one was I needed someone who was fairly AI native in their design, right? So that’s like one of the first things that I looked for. Healthcare experience was definitely a plus, but not mandatory. So that’s something I kind of quickly scanned for to see.

Sarah (28:19)

Mm.

Mm.

Natalie Kurz (28:41)

And if they didn’t have healthcare experience, I needed them to at least have SaaS or software experience. So someone who came in, I had a lot of people that came in that were like brand designers or marketing designers or e-commerce or things. And I was like, that’s just not what I’m looking for. So having some of those, and again, that LinkedIn post I did, and even in the job description, I did try to highlight like…

Sarah (28:59)

Right.

Natalie Kurz (29:06)

here’s kind of some non-negotiables. So first I would look for those non-negotiables. And then once I got past that, I would then start reading a little more carefully the bullets and kind of looking for, can they quantify impact? That was something. And that is so hard as a designer. I struggle with that. I’m struggling with that as a department lead now. Like, how can I quantify the impact of my department? So that is, I realize,

Sarah (29:18)

Mm.

Right.

Natalie Kurz (29:29)

a tough ask to ask for other people, but even if it’s non-numerical impact, right, and more generic, at least understanding that your designs are being used by someone and what behavior, even saying what behavior did it change, right? I was able to design this and as a result, users could more easily complete blah, blah, right? It doesn’t have to say I improved conversion rates by 22%, right? Not everyone gets to those types of metrics.

Sarah (29:43)

Right.

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (29:55)

So was like, they quantify the impact of their design? Can I understand their thought process? That was a big piece on the, once I started looking at the portfolios, right? Can they tell the story? Are they too focused on just the UI decisions that they made as opposed to the problems they were trying to solve, right? That was a key thing in the portfolio. saw that a lot where it was like, I changed this and I made a table like this. And then I, you know, as opposed to I helped users solve this problem or.

I did this type of research to learn this type of thing. So that to me was a lot more important than let’s say pretty screenshots. Pretty screenshots are nice, but they’re not the most important part when it comes to the portfolio for me at least. So yeah, those are all things that come to mind. And even honestly, just being able to follow instructions, right? That is also, yeah, so.

Sarah (30:22)

Right.

Mm.

Yeah.

Say more about that.

Natalie Kurz (30:41)

you know, specifically in the application. And then, like I said, also on the, a company LinkedIn and not, everyone reads, you LinkedIn or was connected to that. So again, it was in the instructions of like, I need to have a portfolio site. You don’t include a portfolio site. I’m not going to go digging for one. Right. And if you have a password and you don’t tell me your password, I’m not going to go emailing you and asking for one. So making sure that’s really clear. And then also making, even making your password easy to copy paste.

Right. And there were a lot of PDFs that came through where I couldn’t copy and paste the email for whatever setting reasons. And so then you have to go type it and it wasn’t, didn’t work. You have to type it again. Right. So just even some of those little things make a big difference in just me being able to quickly see what it is you’re trying to share. So, yeah.

Sarah (31:11)

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s like consider

you the user on the other end of the portfolio, right? I want to just clarify something you said because I I’m wondering if people picked up on it, but you said portfolio site and then you mentioned presentation. So for that role you were hiring for, was it okay if people had either a website or okay, yeah.

Natalie Kurz (31:26)

Exactly.

Yeah, it was just a link. It was a link to a thing. Yeah, yeah, it was just a

place where, I had lots of folks that had a drive link or a Dropbox link or something, and some were a website. Yeah, either way, but I needed something. There were a lot of applications that didn’t have anything there, right? And so then that made it hard.

Sarah (31:47)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. I I see a question I want to address and then I have a question for you. when you hired that person from Career Strategy Lab as a contractor at Next Gen Health, I think you said there was no application and was that just because it was a contractor role essentially.

Natalie Kurz (32:16)

Yeah.

Yeah. So it was one of those where we needed some folks quickly. We already had some contracting partnerships. They were all based in India. And this was this was a role that I needed in the U.S. And I was like, I don’t have time to go through like putting together a new vendor partnership with a new hiring agency. Can I just bring on a contractor directly? And I have a wonderful boss and he gives me

Sarah (32:34)

Yeah.

Natalie Kurz (32:39)

I will say this is a job where I’ve had more freedom to actually do the things that I need to do than ever before, which has been both a boon and a scary, I’m not sure what to do all the time kind of moment. But he’s like, just do what you need to do higher. He’s like, I’ll prove it. So yeah, it was really just, I reached out, looked at his resume, had a conversation with them, had him interview with another designer just to make sure I wasn’t bringing in any bias or anything just because I liked them.

Sarah (32:50)

Yeah.

Right.

Natalie Kurz (33:05)

And he’s like, yeah, I think he’s great. And that was it. So that was the best case scenario. I would say that’s not gonna be common. And that’s probably not common for other folks to run into, but it certainly can happen, right? But because of that relationship, didn’t have to go through a whole big, big process.

Sarah (33:11)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I think just as a as a a reminder, point of assurance for a lot of people, I think there can be a stigma around contract roles. And I would say, I believe that is a myth because I’ve seen so many people get hired into contract roles that maybe were six months long, turned into two years, turned into a full-time job. So if you’re worried about that, I would say like just

Get that out of your head because I don’t think it is a major red flag to see contracts on your resume. It’s pretty darn normalized.

Natalie Kurz (33:50)

No. Yeah,

and certainly as a hiring manager, did not, like, again, those were things that I focused really hard on kind of not taking into account gaps of contracting. And I was actually, you know, using, so I did use AI, but I used it more as a, help me make sure I’m not bringing these biases into these application reviews, right? And then I’d upload a batch of applications and say, check these and make sure that they’re, you know, that I’m not.

Sarah (33:59)

Mm.

Mm.

Natalie Kurz (34:17)

bringing any of that kind of bias into these, right? So, but yeah, from my point of view, yeah, being a contractor, taking two years off, even coming from another industry, I’ve hired folks, I hired someone who used to be a architect, right? And he just brought a whole different kind of perspective to product design, right? So again, you know, don’t fear that those things are be considered negatives. Yeah.

Sarah (34:29)

Wow.

Right, right. I wanna

I wanna kind of wrap up our time together by going back to the beginning. And you know, you had originally started telling us about you joining Career Strategy Lab and really the power of that initial we call it the sprint, the career roadmap sprint, where you’re getting clear on who you are, what you do, your career roadmap, your career story. in in addition to that, what other parts of Career Strategy Lab?

Natalie Kurz (34:44)

Yeah.

Sarah (35:06)

you know, in hindsight, do you feel like we’re really impactful or transformational or things that you’re just gonna carry with you for years years to come?

Natalie Kurz (35:15)

I think the portfolio, putting in their portfolio was really important for me because as I kind of mentioned earlier, as a people manager, it’s not just about the work I produce anymore. It’s about the work my team produces and it’s about the team itself. And so it really had me thinking more about what kind of story can I tell about my leadership? What kind of initiatives can I highlight?

that I put into place at my previous job, right? Career frameworks or whatever they were and how can I tell that story? So for me, getting beyond just the here’s things I designed, kind of what I was stuck in to me was really, really helpful. And being able to talk to other folks who are in the same or in similar points in their careers, right? Who are struggling with some of the same things and bouncing ideas around about like, how can I tell this story? that’s a really great way.

I think seeing the examples, really loved attending the kind of live critiques, right? Seeing the examples, hearing things, and even just being able to offer as a senior practitioner, being able to offer some insight into someone else’s, right? Having gone through, having been a hiring manager and being able to kind of give some of that coaching to my peers as well, I think was fantastic. So, yeah.

Sarah (36:04)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Well,

Natalie, thank you so much for sharing all about your experience, not just in your job search, getting hired, joining Career Strategy Lab, but also kind of our detour into your perspective as someone who is hiring, because I think it’s such a valuable perspective in the noise of like opinions on hiring. And it’s great to hear, you know, tangible, actual, real life.

insights from a real life hiring manager. Yeah. Yeah. and if people are curious about connecting with you, could I point them to your LinkedIn? Is that the best place? Or okay. Great.

Natalie Kurz (36:48)

Yeah, absolutely. Happy to join.

these. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That’s

where I’m going to be posting. You know, I’m hoping to hire some more folks. So that’s why I’m posting those jobs. So if anyone’s interested in kind of the healthcare software space, definitely reach out and connect and you know, we’ll see what happens.

Sarah (37:05)

Okay.

Great,

great. And also just on our podcast this week, I think it’s episode 180, I interviewed Eric, who runs a healthcare UX program on Maven.com. So if anyone listening is interested in that, you can go find episode 180 of the Career Strategy Pro.

Natalie Kurz (37:28)

okay, yeah.

Sarah (37:35)

Career Strategy Podcast. Geez. It looks like we have some people who have done Eric’s program. So it’s great, great to hear. all right. For ever Natalie, don’t leave yet because we need your file to upload. But for for everyone else, here, just a reminder that if you have specific questions about career strategy lab and is it for me if whatever reason, email me your question.

Natalie Kurz (37:36)

Two. Three.

Nice.

Sarah (38:01)

we will get them answered, but just don’t wait until like five minutes before the deadline tomorrow because I’m not gonna be checking my email. I’m actually helping in a friend with an event. So I’m gonna end this for everyone who is attending, and then Natalie, you and I, in theory, will remain and it will go to the cloud. So thank you again, Natalie. I really appreciate it. All right. Bye, everyone.

Natalie Kurz (38:10)

Thank

Okay, all right.

Thanks a lot. All right, no problem.