UX Hiring Insights: Alexander Zeh, Head of Product Design at ManyChat, on Building Diverse UX Teams, Scaling Design Teams, and What Makes a Portfolio Stand Out

I believe if you do a great job as a hiring manager, you can hire, uh, at first sight, because you know that this person fulfills all the criteria you have set up front, and you know they are matching your bar, and that you do not need a second candidate to

Hey, I’m Sarah Doody, a user researcher and product designer with twenty years of experience. In 2017, I noticed something a little ironic. UX and product people, despite being great at designing experiences for other people, often struggle to design their own careers. That’s why I created Career Strategy Lab and this podcast, to help you navigate your UX job search, grow in your current role, and avoid skill and salary plateaus, all in a chill and BS-free way.

So whether you’re stuck in your job search or wondering what’s next in your UX career, you’re in the right place.

So today, I’m really excited to chat with Alexander Zeh, who is the head of product at ManyChat. Um, in case you’re not familiar, um, ManyChat is a platform that helps kind of businesses and content creators, if you will, um, automate, I would say, social media interactions on Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, I think, maybe TikTok for sure.

And practically, that means, like, they can automate chatbot flows. If you see, like, “Comment the word portfolio to RSVP,” um, that’s probably powered by ManyChat. So, um, Alexander is, um, with us because he has a really awesome perspective on hiring. He has built and scaled design teams, um, with a big focus on diversity, um, and team culture, and, um, I’m really curious to chat with him also just in terms of his own career path and how he’s kind of evolved and maybe reinvented himself a few times along the way.

So Alexander, welcome.

Thank you, Sarah. Thank you.

Did I leave anything out that you want to highlight before we jump in

Well, I would like to highlight that, um, my job title is a bit longer than just head of product. I’m head of product

Okay.

um, because we have a trio, a uh, the, the product trio. We have design, product, and engineering work shoulder to shoulder, and my part is the design team, not, uh, the product.

And how long have you been at ManyChat?

I’ve been at ManyChat now for more than a year, uh, starting in December 2024.

And you’re based in Amsterdam, right?

I’m based in Amsterdam, yes.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

I was just in Amsterdam in September. I lucked out with three days of beautiful sunny weather, and I just strolled the streets, went vintage shopping, and drank a lot of Aperol Spritz.

that’s a great pastime here.

It

Yeah. There’s a lot of good vintage and it’s, uh, especially great, uh, yeah, with good weather. The, the only thing you’re missing is boating. I would recommend you getting, getting a boat with good weather.

Next time. You I sat there with my Aperol Spritz, and I was watching everyone in the boats, and I thought, “Okay, next time, I need to do the boats.” But I did do, um, a little bike tour, which, um, I survived. So, maybe next time, I’ll do a longer bike ride.

Awesome.

Um, all right. So, I am really curious to hear about your path into design and how you kind of got into design leadership. So maybe can we rewind a little bit and hear about your, you know, brief career journey.

Well, so my journey started, uh, in 2006 at the Bang & Olufsen in Denmark, even though I studied in the Netherlands and got into design through graphic design, and my really big first job was in Denmark, joining the Idea Lab and working alongside, uh, monumental designers like David Lewis, uh, very iconic industrial designer.

And that experience, uh, early on really showed me what design maturity looks like and how companies that really get design or, you know, how, how strategic design can be and not just form-giving or the polish, you know, the, the, uh, of the turret. So, um, so two years, uh, yeah, like very early in my career in industrial design and motion graphic design and interaction design.

Then from there, back in the Netherlands, lots of fractional work, uh, across TomTom, Philips, startups, but also research-heavy incubators and Leidos projects across health and all kinds of, uh, other, um, exciting, um, design projects. I, yeah, ventured into teaching interaction design, organizing my own design community events that were, uh, happening at our peak at the same time in London, Hamburg, uh, and in Utrecht in, in the Netherlands.

So, um, yeah. Uh, from there, I went into… Well, from, from that startup period, so to say, or this, I went into proper grownup innovation consulting, uh, working for Cognizant in 2015, and there, I built up the Amsterdam studio, um, doing their design transformation. So, we were doing innovation consulting for companies like T-Mobile, KLM, Verlanschot, which is private banking, but also, yeah, like every other company that has met their Uber moment back then.

Uh, from Cognizant, I entered, well, true, I would say, in-house design leadership, because being a consultant and assembling teams around a problem space is very different than growing a team from the ground up. So, from 2018, um, I joined Mendix when they were, um, bought by Siemens, and I, during six years, I scaled the team in a very engineering-centric B2B, uh, context.

And, uh, we grew from five designers from a small agency setting to 43 people, introducing service design, UX research, research operations, and so on. And so now, ManyChat, um, yeah, different scale, uh, different, very different problem space, very interesting product complexity, and a big opportunity to partner with product leadership, um, and establishing design as a strategic lever across a red hot market that’s very much agentic and AI-infused.

And so, um, yeah, that’s the, second time I’m scaling design on, on this level, and I think what I did in three years at, uh, Mendix, I could now achieve in less than a year, rolling out an operating system, uh, establishing a TA, uh-Let’s say, process, but also, you know, a product operating, a system where you can track all the way from the strategic intent, uh, to the micro-interactions and to the shipped, um, releases if you are shipping the right thing and that the people are doing what you want them to do.

I’m, I’m curious to hear a little bit more about, um, that jump from you being, um, I think it

Mm-hmm.

creative director at

Yes.

and then

Yes.

to, um, Mendix as the head of design. Like, was that a really intentional jump for you? Were you planning to, to get into leadership? Tell us a little bit more about how you went from Cognizant to Mendix, and, and why, too.

Yeah. Why? Um, I, uh, I was in a very different stage in my career. Um, was, um, when, I was, I was head hunted, uh, for this position, so this, uh, position appeared on my radar. Uh, I’ve never heard, I had never had, uh, heard of, uh, Mendix

Mm-hmm.

even talked to them. So the, this was, one of these startups in the Netherlands that were these unknown giants or, like, uh, champions, certain champions. But, um, uh, I was on parental leave, um, with, uh, a very young, um, boy at home. And so I had some time to contemplate and to think.

And, uh, having the opportunity to build something lasting in-house was really fitting with this new phase in my life, because, uh, I didn’t see myself jumping, uh, on a flight, on a, uh, on the consulting flight on Sunday evening or Monday morning in this new situation.

Yeah.

So, so that was one of the contributing factors. But also, the idea turning design into the design material and building a team and, um, you know, creating the right circumstances for a creative team to really have an impact, this is what, drew me, uh, most, uh, to, to this, uh, career change, because that’s something that you do in innovation consulting.

And you create, like, these, these, these teams of superstars or if you, if you have your team, you know who you go to for what sort of problems. And if you have experience working, uh, well together in, in this superstar team, then, well, trying to create it at scale, uh, was a very, yeah, I would say very fitting design challenge and something I, I really enjoyed doing.

Yeah. I, I really appreciate, um, kind of the intentionality there from that, uh, shift from Cognizant to Mendix because one of the things that I really recommend to people is, you know, before you start a job search, get really clear about

Yes.

are looking for, right? Not just in the job, but also in your, in your life. And you said it so well, right? This really aligned with this new chapter in, in your

Mm-hmm.

it allowed you to have more time with, um, your son.

Yes. But also, uh, being very intentional about building something of more lasting value, you know? Then, um, well, uh, I mean, I, find the thrill of getting a new brief every other month is also very

Mm-hmm.

especially as a designer. You know, this was, I think, the initial reason why I, I became a designer. I didn’t want a boring desk job, so to say. But design is the gift that keeps giving, so, so I think there, uh, also with the changing landscape of the design leadership role, um, where you’re more of a people manager is, is, is truly inspiring and motivating for me.

But, uh, I think every, in hindsight, you know, every transition makes perfect sense. While you’re in the thick of it, I would recommend people to have clear values, uh, written down for yourself, rules to live by, or knowing your values, trying to articulating them, understanding what you’re good at, what you’re trying to build on, you know, like your superpowers and, and, or the, the things you don’t want to be good at.

The more you know about, uh, what you would like to do with your career and, um, how you want to develop, the better for your job search.

So what do you think one of the one of your superpowers is that helped you be so successful, um, at your time at Mendix, especially when it came

Uh, so from…

scaling those teams?

Uh, I think it’s, uh, systems thinking, uh, in, in practice, really the ability to look around corners but to feel the So, so drawing from my experience as a service designer, really understanding complexity, and also having, um, strong, commitment to a product domain and really diving into, you know, being hungry, uh, to learn.

So really, this hunger for knowledge, this hunger to learn, this to immerse yourself in a, a certain context, I think is really what helped me thrive there, because, uh, Mendix is a very, very complex product. It’s fairly technical, and also the designers I saw thrive there were the people that, you know, didn’t just leave the REST APIs for the developers, but really truly tried to understand, you know, what it means to, um, yeah, like, and to, to work with very technical capabilities, and try to understand the problem space that the, well, low code developers were facing every day.

So that’s, I think, uh, something that, um, yeah, an exciting problem

Mm-hmm.

is, uh, and the excitement for the problem space and the motivation to unpack that, I think is key.

And, you know, you, you scaled this team, but you also scaled it, um, with diversity and inclusion in mind. And I’m, I’m curious, as someone who was kind of responsible for part of that, how did that impact your hiring process and what you were looking for? Because I

Mm-hmm.

um, a lot of people are curious about what, um, or the impact of diversity and inclusion in hiring, um, especially on teams that maybe are going from less than 10 people to 20, 40, 100.

Well, so I think team diversity is a design decision, and, um, and, and, uh, my TA process, I always jokingly or to my TA partner, Manuel, here, and chat, I was always joking in the beginning is that, we are now going through the sixth iteration of my TA process because that started truly with, uh, with Mendix.

Uh, I mean, uh, I hired people as a creative director, but that was less intentional than it is today. And so for me, uh, the, understanding what the company or the, the, the enterprise needs, truly understanding what the team needs are, this is this is how I start, uh, you know, this, this TA process.

So it’s really understanding what’s there and, I mean, on the other hand, also understanding where, where you need to go to, what capabilities do you need, uh, in the next three years, because you’re, you’re not, uh, hiring, um, for today, you are hiring for the team that you will need tomorrow you know, at, um, uh, yeah, somewhere down the line next year.

So I think, um, this intentionality in hiring starts with having a clear functional roadmap, clear understanding how the design function ladders up to business priorities, and then articulating the activities and the capabilities that, you know, you need to drive, uh, you need to bring on board in order to get there.

And so, um, well, business acumen, one, understanding what the business goals are, but then from there, laddering, well, from your position, laddering up to these business goals means you need to decide. Do you need researchers? Do need service designers? need motion designers? Do you need you know, what are the capabilities that you will need in order to, uh, well, erase all the pain points that the product has, but also bank on the opportunities that are hiding, you know, in, in, in a product or in, in an enterprise.

Um, and so it’s, it’s really you need to know what you’re looking for.

Mm-hmm.

So it starts with a vacancy and also, um, a search. You will need to prepare, uh, yeah, grading criteria upfront, because otherwise, you will always suffer from this, uh, “Yeah, I know it when I see it” situation that you are, “Oh, let’s see another candidate.” You know, “Oh, let’s, let’s wait for next week because we have that interview.” I I believe if you do a great job as a hiring manager, you can hire, uh, at first sight, because you know that this person fulfills all the criteria you have set up front, and you know they are matching your bar, and that you do not need a second candidate to to look at.

And so, so this is this cascade of that you’re responsible for as a hiring manager. And I don’t want to scare anyone, but I really believe there’s a lot of work on the TA side and on the hiring manager side in order to do this well. And, um, and it’s really and, and there’s a few tricks, uh, you, you can apply, but, but one of them, the easiest thing to do in order to avoid groupthink would be, after a case study, to have people hand in their gradings, uh, and their judgments, um, asynchronously.

So, so to have people do this blind submission of their judgment instead of getting everybody in the room, because otherwise the person that speaks first will bias everybody else. And so I think this is really this in a time where critical thinking, you know, is, is confused with the pattern

Mm-hmm.

this is really key. It’s, um and there, yeah, no amount of AI can really help you there. I mean, we are using Metaview, uh, right now with ManyChat, and

Mm-hmm.

fantastic system, and it really helps you. Also, I think, as a hiring manager to, to get better at hiring, because you can, you know, like, see, um, critique yourself and understand, uh, what you could improve, uh, um, through this recording. But it’s really, really important to, um, ask the same questions to create a repeatable process, to have an, uh, big upfront investment in the grading criteria, the capability framework.

Ideally, you have that ready then at some point for your whole team, because that also influences, uh-…the career path of people, but really know what you’re looking for, what good looks like on every level, and also then what the good answers look

Hmm.

on the interview questions that you’re asking. So, so with that, all that, um, structure in place, I think you can systematically create make better hiring decisions. Still no guarantee for a great fit, but, you know, it’s a, it’s a way of, uh, de-risking this decision with a team together.

I, I think what you said at the end is so important, just de-risking the decision for the team, because it is such a risk that you hire the wrong candidate, right? Because it’s so much time and energy, and the trade-offs of the time that your team spent interviewing versus work they could have been doing, and I think it’s just such an important perspective.

Um, and I, I hope it’s also refreshing for people listening to this to know that there are people and, and companies, um, who are being very thoughtful and intentional with grading criteria to avoid bias and things like that. Um, I’m curious though, of course the grading criteria would be different based on every role you’re applying to, but are there any, um, kind of common traits that come up on the grading criteria, kind of regardless of what you’re, what you’re hiring for?

Well, um, well, what, what do I look for? Well, next to the hard design skills and the taste and the craft and, and the outcomes, um, there’s a few cultural signals. I would say, I mean, most important thing for me is self-awareness.

Hmm.

Are people able to reflect? Are they self-aware? Do they understand, you know, yeah, themselves? Or do they try to, uh, learn? Do they have a growth mindset? But then also, do they have a certain curiosity? Um, do they ask, uh, good questions about our product, our users, our challenges?

Hmm.

but also, you know, do they, um, yeah, like, can they, can they think in systems? I think systems thinking, and then also the articulation of it, is, is key currently, especially when you can build anything, you know, really, really quickly. This was also true with low-code, with Mendix, with this low-code platform.

You, if, if you don’t know where you’re going, you can build a whole lot of crap really fast.

Mm-hmm.

And so, intentionality and clear articulation matters. And there for designers, I think, good writing skills are absolutely important. And this is maybe a forgotten art, but I used to start every interaction design flow with writing a scenario.

Hmm.

A simple scenario. And, um, that is, for me, I think, uh, a real key, uh, yeah, skill that I also look for. Clear writing skills, clear articulation skills, um, I would say is, is, is more universal. And of course, then storytelling. Can you bring people along? How can you influence the room?

Um, and are you generally nice to hang out with? I mean, imagine you’re getting stuck, uh, with this person in an overlay flight, 24 hours in an airport, uh, airport bar. Well, I think that should be a, a yes. You know?

Definitely.

Um, I, I’m, I’m curious because, um, you know, the idea of storytelling

Mm-hmm.

…self-awareness, um, comes up quite often. I’m curious, are there any examples that come to mind from people that you’ve maybe interviewed in the past who did such a great job at, um, showing their critical thinking, their storytelling, their ability to articulate, um, whether it was something they worked on or how they handled a difficult situation?

Do you have any examples that just

Wow.

jump out as standout?

Yeah, I think the people that, uh, I have someone particular in mind. I don’t want mention

Right, right.

because it’s such a small-knit community, a close-knit community. But I think it’s, it’s really the people that give you a making of, uh, uh, that are not polishing over, you know, the mistakes that are also, it’s like, because, uh, we all know that, that projects never go according to plan.

And, uh, it’s, it’s the people that show, you know, take you on, on a story, that show you the whole timeline of their career, that, that bring a whole body of work than, instead of just, you know, like, this isolated case. And that, there’s a, these are also the people that can highlight how they work across disciplines and that can show and demonstrate that they are not afraid to share their Legos.

Hmm.

Because I, for one, I don’t believe in the hero designer. I think this narrative out there that’s, that’s forming currently, that the single person can do a job if you enough AI tokens, you know, uh, uh, uh, I don’t buy that, uh, because I think diversity in thinking, diversity in…

You need thought partners. And of course, you know, Claude is a fantastic thought

Mm-hmm.

but it just emphasizes and amplifies what I’m already thinking. So I’m seeking out people that are, you know, have something else to offer. And I think the candidates that really stand out are bringing authenticity in their storytelling, have, well, have a story arc, but also, you know, um, a really clear translating, uh, how they translate design activities into business impact.

Hmm.

So it’s really something, you know, to show, to really show at the beginning, “This was the intent. This is what we tried. These were the outcomes.” A good case study might be a, a, a failed, you know, product experiment, as long as, you know, the, the impact, and the thinking, and then the decision and the pivot at the end has another meaningful, uh, outcome, you know?

It

Yeah.

that, you know, you, you, you start with, um, with, with a big challenge. And, um, then from there, you know, like, like make your case study shine through the, the, the impact that you’re having. Or, yeah, like, um, I think a single or one or two case studies that, that relate to each each other and that are fitting to the problem space and to, to the application.

Now looking back at, um, yeah, more than 20 years in my career, of course, everybody always wants to show the latest and the newest and the but I think it’s the most memorable presentations where the, um, when portfolios were tailored to the problem space and also to the context, um, of what I, of the uh, of that, uh, job vacancy.

So I think it really takes intentionality on, on both sides, I would say.

I, I really appreciate that you brought up the point that, you know, uh, candidates don’t just need to show recent work. Um, I think there’s a misconception out there that you couldn’t talk about something you worked on 10 years ago. And sure, maybe with visual design, it could be outdated, but I think going back to what you said about critical thinking, intentionality, systems, et cetera, like, those are all very timeless skills.

And something even you yourself worked on 10 years ago could certainly demonstrate those skills if you, you know, had to present a project tomorrow or something like that.

I think this is about judgment. It’s like, um, I think this is about the experience. Are you experienced? Can you show, you know, that you’re bringing the right experience? And a lot of the experience, I think, in design, in product design is transferable.

Mm-hmm.

if you are intentional about the way you frame it and you understand, um, the consequences of your decisions and why, why you are doing certain things. So, I think it’s really… Another aspect here, I would say, is role clarity without ego. Um, I think it’s really important to understand how you frame your contribution.

And it’s the people that say, “I facilitated, I synthesized, or I unblocked,” um, that, uh, you know, it’s, it’s instead of, “Hey, I did all of this by myself.” No, I think it’s really, um, this sort of language signals maturity that you are really standing on the shoulders of giants.

I mean, or like this whole team, you know, that enables you to ship great work. I think that’s, that’s really important, at least at the scale that I’ve reached. I know there’s… I’ve, I’ve worked in startups with, that where you could fit in one room,

Mm-hmm.

you know, but, um, yeah. And at the scale of ManyChat, for example, or, some Index, or more than a thousand people across Siemens, you know, there’s, there’s like, there’s this whole ecosystem that you’re depending on and that you, well, I think that you’re contributing to. And understanding what kind of citizen you are and what your role is in this

Mm-hmm.

ecosystem is also really important. And not glossing over that. You don’t have to carry all of this yourself. It’s like, it’s, it’s really okay. And, uh, I think it’s very necessary to admit what you contributed and what the other contributions were.

Mm-hmm. Yes, uh, as you said, I mean, there is no hero designer, right?

well, eh, some people make it look like there, there is. And I think there is a few principal designers or designers at a very, very high level, but I would argue also they benefit from thinking partners and that are willing to challenge their thinking.

I’m, I’m curious to shift gears a little bit

Sure.

hear your perspective on, um, potential differences in what you may look for if you’re hiring candidates, um, in different companies. So ManyChat has offices around the world. I’m actually not sure if you yourself manage people in different companies or in different countries. Do you?

Well, so it’s like we have the design team sits in Amsterdam and in, um, in Barcelona.

Okay.

And, uh, they are, yeah. And we are looking into expanding, um, towards North America and, uh, so, so that’s like currently, but also the, the marketing organizations in Austin. So, so it’s very, yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, almost follow the

Right.

but, not, not fully global yet.

So one of the questions I’m asked all the time, and I’m hoping you can answer

Mm-hmm.

is what are the differences, um, between getting hired in Amsterdam versus Spain versus USA versus Canada versus wherever, right? I think a lot of candidates think because they are in a certain country, there must be a different approach that they need to take. And my answer is always, “At the end of the day, presenting your work, talking about your work, showing how you think, et cetera, is pretty universal.” Um, so what is your perspective on that?

Well, I think there is absolutely, like hiring a designer in, in, in Barcelona and Amsterdam, there’s absolutely no difference. Um, neither should there be a difference if we would have a place, would have offices in Stockholm or any other tech hub, you know, London, uh, Berlin. No, the jobs are, are the same, um, I would say.

Or it depends, of course, on the job and, uh, it’s, yeah, there are, yeah, no, from the capability perspective, I don’t see any reason for writing these job, uh, descriptions differently.

Right.

It is, might be a different context, but then, you know, yeah, a different engineering context because a certain part of the team is in Amsterdam, other parts are in, uh, Barcelona. This is what it’s about, about matching capabilities, matching peers, and matching problem space. And ideally, this is like your team is structured around the customer journey and not just around the legacy, you know, of your software product.

And that’s, that’s something else. But I think everybody that works around the first, um, well, the first day experience growth should be co-located.

Mm-hmm.

When it comes to then return use or deeper system use, well then, that’s, that makes sense to co-locate these people. And, um, uh, the, the, all this, let’s say the, the platform teams, design systems, content, stuff that’s truly transversal, it doesn’t matter where you sit as long as you’re co-located.

But that, the, that team could be, I mean, the, the Barcelona office could also be in Berlin, London, Stockholm. It doesn’t matter. It could be Singapore.

Right.

It’s, uh, I think there, I don’t, don’t see any demographic reason. It’s, it’s similar to personas, right?

Right.

I maybe this is quite a stretch, but a great persona talks about jobs, needs, you know, pains, that sort of stuff, and not about age and other demographic signifiers. That’s all bullshit.

Right.

That doesn’t matter.

Yeah. I, I’m always

Excuse my French. It’s

No, no. Swearing is fine. Um, I’m just, I’m always perplexed when people ask me this question because similar to you, I just think, “Why, why should it matter?” Of course there’s maybe cultural differences, but I think, I think the question comes up because candidates get so frustrated when they don’t get interviews and they don’t get offers and they look to try and blame it on something, and so they think, “Well, it must be that I, you know, have not tailored my portfolio for what a company in, you know, another country is looking for,” something like that.

And when I look at their portfolio or their, their resume or their LinkedIn, I just see very basic mistakes that have… being made that have nothing to do with, um, you know, borders.

Absolutely. I think it’s, uh, it’s, it’s more, I think, uh, well, showing problem-solving and decision-making skills in your portfolio.

Yeah.

Um, it’s really hard because you can narrate you can’t narrate it. It really takes work, and it’s really, really difficult, and nobody has time for that sort of work. And so setting aside time for writing and articulating the impact that you have made while you are in the job, and not just, you know, while you’re looking, I think this is a really important muscle to build.

That’s something that you can, I would say, I would call simple impact reporting. And maybe managers think more about this sort of stuff than individual contributors, but I would, uh, argue that also as an individual contributor, you should, at the end of the week, know what kind of impact you have made.

And that’s the sort of stuff that can go into a straight into your portfolio. Um, collecting, I think, uh, quotes from people that you worked with is, is another aspect of bringing, uh, you know, these case studies or your portfolio to life, to really help people see you through others’ eyes is important.

But then, um, yeah. Like, um, uh, that while, you know, the storytelling in a, in a live presentation and in a case study, that’s where you can be a bit more intentional about what I just talked about earlier. It’s like, were there any pivots? Are there any forks in the road?

Hmm.

You know, because that way you can set it up in a way that this people are not losing I mean, people have nowhere to go. You know, your portfolio needs a clear hook, needs to draw people in. Same, your CV needs to be one page only. It’s like multi-page CVs, out.

You know, like, uh, I mean, all that stuff where people have, like, a skill summary or something. Now you can have a summary of your impact, I would say some quotes how, what other people say about you, and then an experience list, and, and that’s it. And then everything should be fitting on one page.

You can summarize earlier experience, maybe in one, one paragraph. But, uh, yeah. It’s, it’s, again, tailoring, understanding who you’re writing

Mm-hmm.

who your audience is, and that’s a hiring manager that’s weeding through its hundreds of portfolios, probably, because it’s, if you, yeah, if you look at our pipeline, we get so many applications currently because of the crazy job market.

Mm-hmm.

It’s, uh I can understand why people are looking for these reasons, but these are the wrong reasons. Absolutely. It’s like the, the, um, location is definitely not it.

Yeah. Well, you, you mentioned something I wanna, I wanna follow up on, um, uh, wanting candidates to talk about their impact. And many candidates ask me, “Well, how do I show my impact if I don’t know what happened?” Maybe they left the company or they were fired, or the

Mm-hmm.

was cut before it launched, right? And so, I think gets, um, uh, there’s an assumption that impact

Success.

and then we made a million dollars, right?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

But you, you

That’s a beautiful one.

You, you mentioned, you know, um, collecting quotes from colleagues and things.

Yeah,

So, how, what are other ways that candidates can show impact when they haven’t helped the company make a million dollars?

Well, so, so, I mean, the, this living happily ever after is optional, right? A lot of design projects fail or never get shipped, or especially in consulting, uh, uh, yeah, the amount of really great prototypes that never got built, you know, is really gut-wrenching. Um, I would say

I have so many things that

It’s, you know, it’s like, And, and then, and then the architects fucked it up, you know? And then it’s like And, and, anyway, you know, uh, they, they will, they will, they will, well, the prototype was great, but then they, they they screwed it up in production, and so on.

And if that sort of stuff happens, I would What you can do, uh, I, think this, this comes down to these skills that If you look at what’s happening currently, your Figma skills, nobody cares anymore. Is it like, like Miro, whatever tool you work in, it does not matter.

It’s like, what’s the intent and what’s the judgment of the outcome? It’s like, what’s, what have you, what were the constraints? And when it comes to tent, I think it’s important, uh, to also highlight any constraints, um, narrating the constraints. Like, I would say that most interesting design decisions happen within really stark constraints.

Mm-hmm.

Time, technology, could be politics, conflicting user needs, you know. That’s, this stuff shouldn’t be edited out. It’s like, I think this is the stuff that can bring a case study to life. And the, the constraints in that sense are making the decision interesting, or like the, the outcomes. And what I uh, said previously as well is, like, show the forks on the road, we have these options, well, and so on, right?

It’s like, really bring people along. Um, “We chose B because back then, we were thinking this.” “Well, in the end, we learned that.” You know, zoom in, zoom out, go, um, go ahead first with the strategic contact, text, the business goal, the user problem, uh, the opportunity. Maybe you were not, uh, working from a pain point.

Maybe you were pursuing new business growth. Well, then make sure you frame it. Make sure you, uh, let people understand, you know, that this was an incubator, that this was upstream where, you know, in a, in a, in a, like, like, really wide open market where there weren’t no constraints.

Or you are, like ManyChat, you suffer the red queen effect, everybody…… is trying to copy then you will feel like, uh, you just need to build a lot of stuff faster than everybody else, and this is the this is exactly the wrong thing to do. And so, uh, zooming in, zooming out, um, and then, you know, like, uh, yeah, zooming into a specific design decision and how that connects to the intent, to the business goal.

So if you can show me how a certain activity was supposed to influence that revenue retention, and that you only got to measuring it halfway because your product was sunset, it still shows your, your critical thinking style. And that you can probably and tentatively repeat this, um, sense-making on the job that I tried to hire you for.

And I think these skills matter more than ever today, because yeah, the designers’, design tools were sort of gatekeeping, who got access to building cool stuff. Um, well all, that is sort of over, one might argue, with, uh, you know, AI in the room.

Mm-hmm.

However, without intent, you will just drown in slop. It’s, it’s, it’s just, it’s, it’s really, it’s like, it’s, it’s, things currently don’t feel like they are stave. Well, everything is accelerated.

Mm-hmm.

Everything is more. There’s, there’s only more and more, and there’s, it doesn’t feel like things are slowing down anytime soon. And so I think, uh, most important thing here is like how intentfully are you about how you’re spending your time, what you’re building, what, what, what, what, what are you shipping?

Um, well ideally you have, uh, this, this logic flow from what inputs will create certain outputs and longer term business impact. That’s, uh, that’s key. But then being able to articulate what that means at every step is the hardest thing.

Mm-hmm.

And that means you need to know where you want to go, and that’s really, really the, the, the, like knowing where you want to go, it’s like most people are just solving problems. They will come to you… It’s like, yeah, the competition… I mean, the worst, the worst answer in a portfolio conversation could be is like, “Yeah, we did this because the competition.”

Hm.

“We copied that, and then I’m out.” And for me that’s like, I’m like, “Yeah, okay. That’s, like, absolutely not what I’m looking for,” because I’m looking for designers that are creative and problem-solving, and that are creating something out of nothing. And that means it’s like you have to set a clear vision, which is really hard to do for people.

It’s… And most creatives, I think, are able to be creative despite, uh, having a proper Western education, because there you are basically educated to be a problem solver, to be a, a, cog in an assembly line.

Mm-hmm.

And that’s not what will get you to design better. So in my mind, design is about setting a vision, knowing where you want to go, with all the constraints acknowledged, because that means you need to assess reality. So the vision first, then you look at reality, and the constraints will pull you back away from that vision, and then you systematically ladder up to that vision.

So you create step-by-step iterations to get to the goal that, that you have set. And if that’s an outcome-based goal, an intentional outcome-based goal, you can even recalibrate the vision in an autonomous way without checking back with your manager or the head of design or, you, you know, the CEO.

It’s like something that will create autonomous teams. And I think that’s where… Well, the, the, that, that are the superpowers I look for in people. And, and it’s, it really, yeah, um, sets the people apart. The, the, the, let’s say the, the skillful designers apart from the people that are just getting started.

And I think it, it sets designers apart, um, from designers who rely too much on AI, right? I think what you just described, um, AI can be a good thought partner,

Yes.

the ability to do what you just described, I don’t believe it’s going to replace us at all.

Well, I think this is what you see, right? It’s like the intention… How, how… You cannot you cannot create what you can’t articulate.

-exactly and,

This is it. This is like, uh… And, and Claude is only as good as you. It’s, …mirroring your abilities. and that’s, I think, what many, uh, companies forget, um, why the way they are thinking. But, “Oh, no, uh, you know, everybody can build.” Yeah, so let them. But it won’t lead to outcomes.

It will just overwhelm. It will be too much to decide and it’s… Yeah. You have to balance the human constraints of the team and the capabilities with what is technical possible, technically

Yeah.

…and that’s absolutely off the charts. So, I mean, uh, it’s very addictive also. It’s like white coding until late at night. Yes, I’m guilty. And, uh, my, uh, partner hates me for it, but it’s, …it’s a bit like you know, a video game, where you just wanna get that end boss and

Yeah.

…it’s, That stuff is never over. So I think it’s, like, intense. Something we haven’t talked about, what’s really important here for me is rhythm. You need intentionality, you need rhythm, seasons, you know? All the stuff that makes us human is, uh, I think, uh, the most worthwhile, um, values that you can install in a design team as a

Yeah.

…at this point.

I, I wanna try and answer one or two questions. I don’t see

Yes, go.

…see any yet, so I’m gonna give people a chance …put their question in, but I do have one more question. So, on your website, um, you have a great list of principles.

Mm-hmm.

And one of them, I’m gonna read it, is designing for long-term resilience and differentiation. And, uh, I know that relates to products, but I’m curious how that relates to either you and your own career or how you look for resilience and differentiation in candidates.

Well, it’s a really, really big, big, big question. Um, but it’s like I think for me, this is, like, something just, just a habit. It’s something that, uh, is important for me, um, just to… Don’t delay decisions, you know? It’s like this… It’s, it’s very related to what I just talked about, the, this, uh, ambiguous basis, the gap between vision and

Mm-hmm.

…you need to able to hold that space as a designer. Also, as a individual contributor. It’s not just your manager. And I… This is something I would demand from every senior designer, that they are able to hold that tension.

Mm.

And I think, for me, that’s a life skill. Because it’s like, how often can you get frustrated in just thinking, “Oh, I’m not there yet. I just as not…” Or, like, “Hey, I didn’t get this job or that.” It’s like, it’s like being able to hold the tension between where you wanna go.

Well, if you know where you wanna go. That’s the first part,

Mm-hmm.

So work on your values, under your purpose, and your, your principles for life. But, uh, being resilient means, for me, that you, uh, learn to live with ambiguity and,

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, maybe this is a bit, um, too far out, but it’s also spiritual capability. Because there is no certainty. It’s like I’m always… I mean, I’ve been in the business. I, yeah, I like futures thinking, uh, maybe more than anybody, or, like, uh, you know. But it’s like nobody has a crystal ball.

These are just extrapolations.

Mm-hmm.

These are just different scenarios. Nobody knows how, how tomorrow will look like. Um, and, and in hindsight, things make, make a lot of sense. So, I think this resilience, being able to deal with ambiguity, being able to trust that things will just work out or that, you know, that, that, that capacity, building up this capacity to hold that tension, this is the core skill, or this is one of the super powers you can develop as, as not even, yeah, design leader or

As a human, right?

Just as a decent human being, …I would say it’s, uh, it’s, it’s important.

Well, I… Resilience. I feel like we could have a whole episode about resilience. I… Maybe I’ll write a book about it someday. And if I do, you will be on my list of people to interview. I do

could talk about this for hour.

I do see one question. It’s very portfolio-specific, but Liam wants to

Mm-hmm.

…what would you recommend a designer who has work under NDA do, where they can’t show anything, um, and they don’t have many examples, you know, from their portfolio?

Yeah, you can’t show it publicly, right? Um…

Yeah. How do people deal with this?

Uh, well, you have to then set up another NDA.

It’s …I think… I think, uh, you know, it’s like this is where, uh, like… Yeah, you have to really think about, um… Well, it’s, uh, a lot of s-… what is business critical? It’s like, uh, are you hiring… Are, you trying to get hired by the competition? Well, then I think it would be very irresponsible to show anything that, that’s, that’s business critical.

But in design, there is… If you don’t show roadmap or don’t show any, I don’t know, things that are, well, business decisions, I think you should really make the effort to redact the information if there’s anything in your portfolio. It’s, I think it’s always… I, always grade these people as lazy.

They didn’t wanna do the work to, um, sanitize the content, send the NDA that you… That this is on the reps that you expect them… you know, like, yeah. make sure that you are not doing anything harmful to the organization that has trusted you with doing this work for them.

And on the other hand, look out for yourself.

Mm.

Look out for number one, uh…And make sure you have a case study that you can show that is redacted, where you state clearly that this is, uh, confidential. I think it’s good practice in general because, uh, there’s also really horrible stories of designers that are giving away some ideas or showing some work only to see them not getting hired and, you know, these ideas or that work being executed without their contribution.

So, I mean, I have never experienced anything that harmful in, in my career.

Mm-hmm.

I signed a ton of NDAs, hiring, uh, lately also, like, I mean, yeah, candidates sometimes ask us, you know, to, to sign an NDA. Um, I think also some recruiters, uh, some have best practices to sign an NDA before they even talk to you. But yeah, it’s a, it’s, it’s a gray area for me.

Uh, as a hiring manager, I expect you to show that work and make, uh… yeah, and being thoughtful about it and blurring parts that are maybe… I don’t know. You’re not showing any source code anyway.

Yeah.

You’re not handing over the files, you know? So

Yeah.

it’s a screenshot, blur the stuff that you can show, but tell the story, bring the artifact in a, in a sanitized way, but, but show the work as much as you can and make sure that, uh, you’re not causing any harm.

Yeah, I, I think it’s just another problem to solve, right? Just get creative about, about

Yeah.

you could, you know, like I love how you use the word sanitize and just think of what parts you could show, how you could modify them, et cetera.

Right.

you could still verbally tell the story.

Yes. And, and I think if it’s, uh, about live screenshots, so whatever is live, if it’s not live, yeah, I get it, you know, it’s, it’s like, uh… but then, uh, if there’s any customer data in there or

Right.

just make sure it’s redacted.

Yep. Yeah.

And, um, make sure that this presentation won’t harm you, but that you can present yourself in the best possible light.

Yeah. All right. That is all we have time for. I don’t see any other questions. This was so, so helpful. I think a few takeaways that I have are just the importance of knowing your values,

Mm-hmm.

as a person and what you’re looking for in a company. Um, I think another one is, uh, I love you said like, “Be able to hold the tension,” right, and that gap

Yes.

vision and reality I think is so, so big.

Yes.

And let’s see, what’s another one that really stood out to me? I think… Oh, when you said, “Show your Legos.” I wrote that down because I thought it was just such a, a good thing.

Oh, share. Share. Sorry, that’s

Oh. okay.

That’s my mumbling.

Share.

Share your Legos.

Got it.

Share your Legos. It’s like, it’s like, uh, you everybody hates that kid that doesn’t want to share their toys. And then when it comes to sharing your own toys, it’s like you just, “Oh no, that’s mine.” Don’t be so

Yes.

that stuff.

I love that.

It’s like, just share. Be open. I think that’s like, I think a skill that everybody should

I

especially in cross-functional work.

Definitely. Um, okay. Is ManyChat hiring right now? And how could

Yes.

get in touch with you?

Well, we have we have a career, career web page.

Okay, I’ll link to it in the notes and in my community.

Yes.

I

So we have, uh, I’m very grateful for our, uh, brand, um, employer branding team. We have created, uh, yeah, this career web page. Um, you can find it in the show notes. And, uh, they’re, like, we are opening roles across Amsterdam and Barcelona, and, uh, the team will be scaling.

There you can read about our own principles for creativity. There’s another interview that you can watch on YouTube with me being interviewed

Okay.

of our principal designers. So where I talk a lot more about, yeah, some of the topics we touched today. Um, and I think, yeah, also a couple of pictures from the team. And there you can see that when I talk about diversity, I mean it

Yeah.

it’s, uh… there’s a lot of women, uh, and a lot of different nationalities. There’s a potential geopolitical conflict in every room you walk into. So, so I think that’s, uh, the right environment for this

Yes.

to thrive.

Well, and you’re a global product too, you have global users. So I think important to have a global

Absolutely.

making a global product.

Yes.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

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