UX Hiring Insights: Eric Shumake on Healthcare UX, Specializing, & Thinking of Your Career as Gigs

Sarah (00:00)

today I’m really excited to be chatting with Eric Schumache, who is a principal user researcher and founder of something called HXR Labs.

which focuses on the UX of healthcare, UX consulting, and a training company. ⁓ Eric’s been working in UX for 20 years, especially in UX research. ⁓ he has a lot of experience with companies you’ve heard of and maybe haven’t heard of, like Pfizer, ⁓ Johnson Johnson, Novartis, Myriad Genetics, Alive Core, ⁓ and across different kind of sub-industries of healthcare, such as

Cardiology, oncology, neurology, and genomics. ⁓ he also teaches about UX. So that’s why I’m really interested in his perspective. I think teachers make great people to interview for this podcast. ⁓ he’s taught at UX, or he’s taught at Rocky Mountain College of Art and Design and Naropa University, and currently is teaching a very interesting course on Maven.com all about transitioning into.

Healthcare UX. I see raving reviews about it all the time. So we will make sure to link to that in the notes, Eric. And one of the things Eric is really focusing on is how we are using and how he’s using AI in research ⁓ to automate parts with. So I’m sure we’ll get to that. so to kick things off, Eric, I’m really curious just to hear a little bit from you in your own words, how you got into the

the world of UX and research and kind of niching down into this world of healthcare.

Eric Shumake (01:45)

Thank you, Sarah, and it’s amazing to be on this. I’ve been following your work for for years and then I was looking back and I was like, Maybe that’s decades. ⁓ and even before you were in hiring when you were, you know, i in in IC roles and and and in UX. And so it’s great to finally you know, have this kind of materialize, right? ‘Cause I I just feel like I’ve known you for so long. I appreciate your thought leadership and and and

Sarah (01:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Shumake (02:12)

Even I think one time ⁓ you had meant like mentioned me or responded to something in a post and I had a colleague get be like, ⁓ like like Sarah mentioned, like reached out and I was like, that’s awesome. ⁓ and so and putting in the work, right? So we’re out there, we’re we’re we’re trying to give back. and so yeah, I mean I mean I’ve been ⁓ I don’t want to date myself here, but I’ve been doing UX since before it was kind of broadly adopted as a term. It it existed.

Sarah (02:24)

That’s great.

Eric Shumake (02:42)

⁓ but I started out, I mean, Nerd Alert, I like Pascal Summer Camp. ⁓ and then I was doing ⁓ then there was a the the sort of ⁓ like you know, Flash was around at WordPress and it was that kind of era. and so I there’s a lot of work in WordPress sites. And so I got a lot of experience building end to end sites for, you know, really small regional, you know, companies, real estate firms, ⁓

acupuncture clinics, you know, j quite a variety, right? I did a Philly cheesesteak shop, and I learned a lot. and and I had my own thing that wasn’t UX. I called it results-based design because I was like, look, it’s not a brochure, it’s not a parking lot. You can get people to do stuff and you can measure that stuff and you can improve that stuff. And so I really got excited about the kind of that business engine part of it, right?

⁓ but as I was doing it I learned ⁓ and this’ll be a story because this happens three times and the theme is that when you specialize, all good things come from specializing. ⁓ at least they have in my career. and so what I didn’t like was was weeping into a keyboard at three in the morning trying to fix code that was still just always a little bit over my head, right? I really respect people who can developers and coders. That’s a very specific and ordered way of thinking.

⁓ it but what I did like was you know, is solving these business problems. And so it was really scary at the time. It almost felt irresponsible. ⁓ and I think that’s another clue is you know, if it sh it should feel a little maybe dangerous when you make a a a career move. ⁓ but I want I disavowed all development and WordPress work, right? So I just focused on the design and the strategy and the research I had been doing.

And then, you know, UX is kind of you know, on an upswing, they’re hiring for UX roles. And so ⁓ having actually built things and and done all the research and and and you know covered it end to end was a real good competitive advantage because I was up against people from like, you know, maybe the first cohort or two of General Assembly was was coming out then. ⁓ and so you know, some people actually had more advanced, I would say looking back, UX deliverables.

but what got me the role was that I had built a dozen things that were out there actually working and so that I had tied my research to those results. So I got hired at the integer group. ⁓ it’s a ⁓ shopper marketing agency, it’s part of the Omnicom Global group. And so then I got like, you know, I mean I I you know, I I was doing work for Clarol, I was doing work for Mars Wrigley, I was doing work for Michelin tires, we did Jacklinks, you know, the beef dr like all this stuff was coming across my

my desk and part of it was that I was humble. I was actually doing some of what was considered more of the plumbing work at the agency, which is the which was the ⁓ Amazon and the conversion strategies, right? ⁓ and and everybody wanted to work on the innovation, but me kind of working on that plumbing stuff, I got to work across my portfolio was so w more much more broad than than other folks, right? And it brought me into higher level work.

Sarah (05:29)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Shumake (05:49)

and so there I learned some things. I learned that I didn’t really like a super competitive agency. ⁓ I’m on the autism spectrum, so I honestly I can’t I mask pretty well, but I can’t read a room to save my life. ⁓ and agencies are hyper, you know, ⁓ they’re they’re they’re they’re very socially oriented often. ⁓ and so there again I said, okay, I you know, this is this I don’t I don’t like this the agency environment.

Right. I don’t feel like U like UX was not getting I mean, I w this is a story we can all relate to. ⁓ you know, UX wasn’t getting any respect there and and you know, part of me at that time thought it was the agency. and so I left, but before I left I worked on two things that really then shaped my career. So I worked on ⁓ Capital Funds with American Group. ⁓ no, American Funds with Capital Group, got that wrong. it’s a top ten, one of the top ten funds in the US. ⁓

And I worked with them on like a nine month project and I really I I mentioned before I was on the spectrum, ⁓ the added layer of regulatory complexity for me was ⁓ really cool and I actually liked it ’cause it’s like solving a puzzle. ⁓ and none of my colleagues liked it, right? So again that work was available. so like stay a little bit humble and don’t be afraid to do, you know, some of that bread and butter work.

⁓ but then the what really rang my bell was Johnson and Johnson. And this was the first was with their Accuview line. And so we I did work with their Accuview line in the US, in the EU and in Asia, and like these cross-channel comparisons. It was really exciting, super interesting work. And it kind of just like I I like the the added level of ultras, like it felt like it was more meaningful, right? It’s great to sell a lot of MMs. MMs are awesome, like they make people happy.

but for me, you know, and people need money. That’s great. I didn’t like fintech. There’s a bit of a move fast, break things, ethos there. ⁓ not at the higher levels, right? But but there still is. ⁓ and and there’s something about just healthcare, the pacing of it, ⁓ the even more regulatory layers. And so I planted my flag there. ⁓ I left the the consultancy. And again, people were like, You’re leaving that job, right? And it seemed irresponsible.

but th you know, they’re You’re crazy. And I was like, I’m gonna go crazy if I if I’m if I should stay here and try to keep up with the the environment that wasn’t just a fit for me, right? And I think nowadays we can you know, structure thing I’ll get into this later, but you can structure things much more around who we are rather than trying to be the shape of every job opportunity, right? but in leaving there and and really this was then at the height of, you know, sort of the I don’t know, the UX Renaissance. I mean, hiring was was very prevalent.

and so I was able to go independent and I worked with ⁓ the American Society of Nephrologists, ⁓ you know, a live core with the Cardia Mobile. ⁓ that then we were going into COVID ⁓ with with that, and so they actually got a ton of money in investors because they needed remote practice of medicine for EKGs. ⁓ I spent two and a half years at Mary Ed Genetics getting them kind of up to speed. They’re an older analog company.

⁓ so that was interesting and I had a lot of analog skills that came to bear there. ⁓ then, you know, high paced with the what are they c it’s a clinical documentation ⁓ integrity company, which is like clinical ⁓ billing and coding. so I was working next to the money pipes on a consultancy last year. ⁓ and then the teaching has been sort of fun. It’s like it actually ⁓ I don’t know, I just

Sarah (09:16)

Mm.

Eric Shumake (09:26)

I just personally like it. The interactions are good and like I feel like I can really help you know, at that stage. sometimes it’s just like it was for me when I was coming up a therapy session, right? A little bit, right, by somebody who understands the the field. And so ⁓ yeah, that’s that’s that’s the journey. Thanks everybody for listening. That the idea of specializing is always a good thing to do. and ⁓ I recommend it.

Sarah (09:52)

I I took so many notes, Eric. I have so many branches that we could discuss here. But I I think it was really interesting. You said, you know, there was, you said all good things come with specializing, which I just want to underscore with people. And I think that one of the things that the people worry about with specializing is like deciding what to specialize in ⁓ prematurely. And it’s it’s kind of like,

You need to just get out there and get experience and expose yourself to different industries, ⁓ whether it’s finance, healthcare, et cetera. And like you said, expose yourself to different work environments too, right? Because you said that agency experience, you know, gave you the opportunity to see how these kind of projects with puzzle like

traits to them interested you,

the environment of that agency, you know, maybe wasn’t something you wanted long term.

Eric Shumake (10:57)

No, absolutely, a hundred percent agree. I I I feel I feel understood. Yeah.

Sarah (11:01)

And I

I think too, so many people that I speak to and maybe you speak to kind of get very, very worried about. I’m currently working in finance, for example. I want to move into healthcare. I don’t have healthcare experience, so I think I’m gonna get rejected because I don’t have healthcare experience. And I just wanna kind of underscore what what you talked about in your own journey in that.

Because I’m gonna make an assumption, because you worked on the financial stuff that had a lot of regulatory complexity, I think that helped develop that skill and muscle of dealing with complexity, which is healthcare, right? And you you could have gone to other agencies or other industries that are complicated also. But for people worried about that, I would just underscore it’s less about having experience in the literal industry and more. How can you transfer?

⁓ the skills you already have, in your case, Eric, regulatory complexity, to the industry that you’re actually excited to go work in.

Eric Shumake (12:09)

Absolutely, right? And then that that that halo kind of remains and so it’s transferable. And so especially when hiring environments are good, like, you know, six or seven years ago, a a common conversation would be, you know, ⁓ hey, ⁓ you know, ⁓ so and so’s in healthcare, which means they’re good in regulatory you know, regulated environments, so they’d be good if somebody’s looking in fintech, right? ⁓ and the hiring market will return to that because the principle endures that

Cognitively, I think we abstract back more easily than down. Meaning, so you know, if you think of somebody and they’re in healthcare, you’re still gonna think of them because of the regulatory context and recommend them for finance, right? But if they’re a generalist overall, right, then there’s no way to kind of come up right with them y you know. But the first depth ⁓ that we come up with is our expertise, of course, in in in UX, right? In the in in UX skill and craft.

Which can transfer anywhere, right? You could take a really good UX person. They don’t have to have domain expertise. This is kind of a nerd fight post thing I see a you know come across every once in a while is do you need deep domain expertise or you know, can you come in with with, you know, just really really good, you know, UX skills? And it’s a little bit of both, because fresh eyes can be good, right? ⁓ but also in some places like healthcare, ⁓ you know, where the the ⁓

you know, where the repercussions are so are are are so severe, right? Where it’s either morbidity, right, or ⁓ you know, or or lawsuits or things like that, you’ll find there’s much more of a risk aversion strategy in hiring. Like they want to get that hiring right, but they sure don’t want to get it wrong. Right. So they’re looking for some of that basic stuff like, you know, in the US markets it’s HIPAA compliance, which is which is patient privacy, you know, and so there’s some easy things you can do

Like you can go out and get a HIPAA it’s c it’s called a HIPAA business associate license. ⁓ and it’s like thirty bucks. It it’ll take you two hours or less and it will tell you everything you need to know about HIPAA to not violate that and to to in patient privacy and safety, right? and so that’s something you can pick up. So you do need a little bit you know, in in healthcare or in in you know, in some of these other areas that are that are very, very regulated, ⁓ there is a ⁓ there is a threshold.

but once it’s met, then the door the door opens and then you’re competitive with that specialization over a thousand other generalist ⁓ you know, resumes. And that’s on the clinical side because there’s this whole other delta and kind of way to get into health tech that I recommend, which is through education or w or educational or or like wellness apps, right?

Sarah (14:52)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Shumake (14:53)

⁓ and so they’re subclinical, they’re clinical adjacent, you’re in there, you’re y you know what I mean, you’ve worked at one and then you can move to the other. So you can either do it by going credential first or expertise first, right? or you can do it by kind of by kind you know, ⁓ coming in from the wellness

Sarah (15:10)

That’s really interesting about you know the the ability for people to go out and seek out fast and affordable ⁓ certifications like that HIPAA license. I’m sure there’s similar things in in other industries, but I had no idea. So I definitely learned something from that. ⁓ let’s see here. okay, you are very experienced in.

Getting into healthcare yourself, but also walking other people through how to do that. And I’m curious, what kind of surprises or gotchas or maybe blind spots do people have when they are looking to get into healthcare?

Eric Shumake (15:56)

So one of the most common ⁓ record scratch moments, because it’s often I I think it would be more comical if it didn’t rattle people so much, is that the way that that like clinicians like and especially you know emergency department doctors are are are trained about empathy is not the way that we’re trained about empathy. So we’re using the same word for two di very different things.

And so people will come in and and myself included, I’ve made this mistake with clinicians or I was puzzled for a bit, you know, by it, thinking that they would inherently understand, you know, just th that that that, you know, psychological ⁓ you know you know, empathy of peop for people who are already generally well, right? ⁓

But when you mention mention empathy to them, they’re actually trained out of that in their clinical decision, right? So of course they want that. Like there is a quote by ⁓ Dr. Robbie in the show The Pit, ⁓ about about ⁓ what was it? It was about satisfaction scores, and he said they should be satisfied that they’re alive. Right? ‘Cause he’s those guys are dealing with under resource situations. They’re making like multiple life and death decisions hourly.

Sarah (17:01)

Ha ha.

Eric Shumake (17:09)

⁓ and and so for them that kind of empathy, you know, they even there is even kind of a side plot of where it where he wasn’t being empathetic enough ’cause he was driven so hard to run right. And so you have to watch that, but certainly ⁓ you know, coming in and just saying, Hey, here’s empathy and thinking that all of a sudden the doctors will be ⁓ you know, allied because because of that, you know, because of the general bedside demeanor.

⁓ that’s something that they’re putting on for the patients, but that is not that’s not where they’re living day to day, right? They’re more in that, you know, ⁓ more in the trenches. And so tying things not I think overall the thing the takeaway from that is don’t really like use UX processes but don’t expect people to to be you know like you know even if you try to educate the teams and bring them up to speed on UX processes

What we need to do is actually, ⁓ it’s not enough to offer the cup of tea. We have to turn the handle towards them, right? ⁓ so we’re giving them this good research and this good design, ⁓ but we have to tie it to things that are in their world that matter, that they have to deliver on, right? ⁓ and so, you know, the business folks, you gotta give numbers, you gotta give you know, you gotta give savings, you gotta give them increased revenue.

for the physicians, you know, you you gotta give them better outcomes, you gotta give them more ⁓ you know, action ability. They like to be able to see things in all in one place and take action. ⁓ and so I think it’s it’s you know really going that extra mile to get into their shoes and not ask them to learn UX ’cause frankly over my career most of them won’t. ⁓ you know, but they’ll ⁓ they all like a good workshop for some reason. And everybody understands the flowchart.

Sarah (18:53)

Ha ha

Eric Shumake (18:55)

⁓ but those don’t really move the the dial at the end of the day, right? And and and e even then this is more broadly applicable to all UX, which is, you know, I I I feel at this stage that, you know, ⁓ that recommendations are where insights go to die. Pardon the harsh metaphor, you know, but you really have to we have to tie insights to decisions and then measure the impact of those decisions. and half of all stakeholders think in numbers.

Sarah (18:59)

Yeah.

Mm.

Eric Shumake (19:19)

So we have to put numbers on and we’re an honest lot. Like I’ll talk to people all the time, like, well, why are you hesitant to put numbers? I don’t know those numbers. We couldn’t possibly get those exact numbers. Those are proprietary. Okay, cool. Right. So all we’re doing is like, you know, these are illustrative numbers, right? So we can say, hey, you know, from this type of form field change, overall you can expect a six to eight percent, you know, increase in in in accurate completions.

And then you plug in numbers about how many customers we have, revenue stuff, and all of a sudden you’ve got number modeling because everybody else is those ⁓ you know nobody else worries about their numbers being slightly imaginary, right? Marketing’s numbers are imaginary, right? ⁓ y y you know, the C-suite’s numbers are imaginary or aspirational. ⁓ and even when it goes through accounting, those numbers are still like the the frozen section of that story at that time, right? So the numbers just so I I recommend that we all

What was this sad chestnut? Don’t ⁓ don’t show up to a numbers fight w with just feelings, right? And that was from me doing that too many times, right? So, you know, we have the empathy, we have that, right? Everybody else has the numbers. And so if we show up with the numbers and the feelings, that’s how we win.

Sarah (20:24)

Ha ha.

Mm.

Well, I first of all I love the pit reference. So I am definitely a pit junkie. But I think, you know, the the challenges that you brought up in in doing UX within healthcare, ⁓ I think really it’s just an important reminder that the challenges that come up in healthcare are you not unique to healthcare. They come up in doing UX.

Eric Shumake (20:40)

And well.

Sarah (21:00)

Anywhere because you and I and everyone listening sees the narrative online where you know UX doesn’t have a seat at the table and no one listens to us and we just want to do right for the user type thing, which is true, but there’s an and there. And that and in the case of healthcare is the business of healthcare, right? And you could just apply that to the business of finance, the business of whatever industry you’re in. And I think it’s

It’s such an important reminder for people, regardless of what industry maybe they’re interested in. ⁓ let’s just continue using healthcare though, you know, you might be drawn to it with the idea of helping people and like ensuring that in extreme cases, like UX decisions don’t cause death, literally. And at the same time, that has to be balanced with the business, as you said. And I think it’s a reality that that.

sometimes gets ignored for some reason. And I think every industry is going to have this problem.

Eric Shumake (22:03)

Absolutely, right? And and so, you know, how do you solve the business problem? How do you solve the human problem? And I think that that, you know, internal loyalty to revenue is why you see startups, you know, calling it product design more than UX design, right? Because UX had was was pinned with this, you know, empathy hang up. ⁓ but I think that they’re wrong because, you know, I think kind of, you know, ⁓ you know

Sarah (22:19)

Yeah.

Eric Shumake (22:30)

you have to meet the the user and the customer and the person where they’re at for the business aspect, right? Because if you don’t listen to that, if you just drift off on the on the you know, on the revenue side, ⁓ then y you know, ’cause the the number one thing, and I put it on a t shirt, like this is my number one most repeated phrase, is we have to s in it, you know, broadly speaking, in late capitalism, right, I’m all for trade based economies, minimum basic income, whatever’s next.

But in our current system, we have to solve problems that are costing people money, and those people have to have the money to pay to have those problems solved. And if we’re not, you know, closing that square, ⁓ then it’s not plugged in. And that happens to companies. That happens to people. Like if you’re worried about getting laid off, you know, I’ve always kept d this sort of nervous napkin math at any place I’ve been where I’m earning them two to ten times what they’re paying me, and that I I that I draw a pretty straight line through

how I’m doing that, right? ⁓ and and so yeah, I think if it you know, and and even sometimes in healthcare where people are saying, well, we don’t want to take advantage, the populations are vulnerable, they’re sick populations, you absolutely don’t. But that doesn’t mean that like, you know, the organ the it’s sort of like the the the analogy I’ll use is like the the like blood flow, right? So for physicians, for a doctor to help somebody, they have to have enough right kind of, you know, blood flow and that can be analogous to revenue, right?

⁓ and so you know, the the business part has to be taken care of. And if any if there’s any work that’s actually being done and paid, that’s what is happening, right? ⁓ and so, you know, it it’s yes, we can try to you know always advocate for the user, but that’s you know, the the the bottom line is the bottom line. And so if we’re not taking care of that.

Sarah (24:10)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Shumake (24:25)

then we wonder why there’s no work or there’s no right and a and a job is just kind of a bundle of, you know, problems that are costing people money they they pay to have solved, right? ⁓ and so, yeah. I don’t know, a little a little bit of a rambling answer there, but

Sarah (24:39)

No, it it’s great. I think it’s just it’s such an important reminder because I s I see the posts all the time on LinkedIn of kind of UX people wanting to just focus on the user and and all this stuff. And it’s it’s great and noble and there is no user if there is no business at the end of the day. Right. And it could sound harsh, but I think this is a challenge that

anyone is going to face out even outside of the world of user experience, right? My sister is an ⁓ was an ICU neuro ICU nurse for 15 years or something like that. And I’ll I’ll make this story short, but she and I think very similarly in terms of systems, right? And she constantly saw all kinds of ideas of how they could improve systems.

Eric Shumake (25:14)

Sure.

Sarah (25:32)

But at the end of the day, you need the buy-in of the doctors or of the management and how that is going to impact, you know, dollars, time, outcomes, whatever it is. So even though she has ideas that could be amazing for the patient, ⁓ it needs to filter through all those other people. So yeah, this this problem is not unique just to UX and us having stakeholders.

Eric Shumake (25:55)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (26:00)

You know, push back. It happens everywhere.

Eric Shumake (26:03)

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sarah (26:05)

⁓

all right, so I’m curious to to focus a little bit more on, you know, your work through HXR Labs. I got that right. Yes, HXR Labs.com. And tell us a little bit more about the work that that you do ⁓ there.

Eric Shumake (26:18)

Care experience research, yes.

Sure. I mean, so that’s the consulting, that’s the training. ⁓ and you know, I I think a little over I’m thinking back probably about ⁓ over half of my career has been consulting, ⁓ and then there’s been the, you know, ⁓ interesting full time roles you know, as as they’ve come up. ⁓ but I’ve always had the a consultancy. So even from when I was back doing those WordPress sites, and and actually the names I cracked up ’cause the names are very dated from era to era. So

the first was ERCShoe Designs, Ericsshoe Make, Erkshoe, and it was back when those giant fonts were in, you know, I mean ⁓ yeah. I mean we’re thinking around, you know, I don’t know, 2000. ⁓ and then ⁓ from that it went to workable web design. How web two point does that sound, right? ⁓ and then it was preactive digital back when people were still putting digital on the end of things. ⁓

And then ⁓ and actually it was preactive digital for quite a while. ⁓ and then ⁓ has now updated to HXR Labs or the Healthcare Experience Research Labs. And so it’s always evolved and I, you know, the inter one of the cool things that that consulting taught me is that in cons consulting you’re paid for results, not activity. Like you are paid for results and if you don’t get results, the contracts don’t renew.

And it’s a little bit like a hit movie. Like if you if you keep the hits coming, if you come across you know, off of a really strong one, you got stuff to write about, you know, people are are are kind of, you know, passing your name around and recommending you. Cool. If it goes cold, you gotta hustle a little bit more, right? ⁓ so I’ve always I’ve always, you know, focused on like my job is not activity like, I did this and we tried and it didn’t work. Like my my job is, you know, ⁓

Yeah, we did this, it didn’t work, and I did all this other stuff and now it works and here you go. ⁓ and that’s true, but sometimes you know, sometimes with full-time roles, especially in larger bureaucracies, oddly enough, the the the point is is is you know ⁓ is activity without results, right? ⁓ and I’ve always wondered about that, like why are bureaucracies waste all these good ideas and the trade-off is vast organizational stability, right?

Sarah (28:28)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Shumake (28:37)

and so that’s you know, that’s why you’ll you’ll see that. And so sometimes I’ve I’ve been surprised, but I’ve been in full time roles where I’ve been paid for activity that produced no results, and that seemed, you know, anyway, so you know, I think that that that’s just another ⁓ kind of ⁓ aspect to it. so

Another thing that’s interesting is I don’t really differentiate too much and I realize most people don’t think this way, but now I don’t differentiate too much between a conversation with somebody that might be, you know, contract work, you know, might be a full time role. To me, those are really just different ways things are structured. And and even now, like with the with the you know, the economy and and and after the great resignation, right, I think that these layoffs are are th they’re they’re kind of a a a new feature.

⁓ right to so the the these rolling layoffs are gonna keep on going to keep people a bit scared, keep people doing a bit of a job and a half, right? And so the tenure at most of these jobs is gonna be like three to five years. So even full time roles to me, you know, are are ⁓ just maybe longer term gigs, right? ⁓ and that’s not to say that d I I just find a real utility in saying, okay, I’m talking to these people about the work and solving the problem and we may structure it this way, we may structure it that way.

you know, or they’re offering it to be structured this way. ⁓ but I all I look at them all as gigs. You know what I mean? ⁓ because you can’t just you just don’t know anymore, right? And there’s just not even that much stability. ⁓ you know, there used to be stability if places were big, but now one of their big investor tricks is is to kind of you know, is to kind of ⁓

you know, rev the numbers by doing a layoff cause revenue, you know, they if you cut payroll you get a huge quick boost, people invest. ⁓ and bonus, you know, you can punch down on labor and people stay kind of compliant. So ⁓ but there’s now more time for people to do like I recommend an all of the above approach, right? So, you know, I recommend all you know, everybody have a consultancy facing presence, right? So you’ll have like an individual portfolio site and then something that’s that’s, you know

not named self-referential like I did with Urkshoe, right? Cringe. ⁓ but something that’s more descriptive, right? And institutional or objective. because that just gives that broader professional face, right? And then you can do things like you can do, you know, like I I recommend vibe coding and building things because I’ve always talked about building is, you know, what people I think really helps in hiring decisions if you’ve actually built the things because it shows the applied knowledge.

and you can put those little projects under your consultancy, right? ⁓ and then what’s gonna happen is that actually having that consultancy there is gonna increase your chance of getting hired for the full time role, right? Because you’re gonna be out there doing more things, you’re gonna show that initiative, that leadership, right? ⁓ it will help also if you wanna get a contract gig, because those can help stair step up into I’ve had a number of contract gigs turn into full time roles, especially if you deliver.

Sarah (31:39)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Shumake (31:40)

Right? Hey, we love this. We need this. We’re gonna put it all together. We’re not half of all jobs are not advertised, right? It has to be more now. What is it? Three thousand resumes an hour? Sarah? Isn’t it like coming in this it’s AI on the hiring side, what does what does anybody do with three thousand resumes an hour? Right. So hire all hiring is relational. You have to show social proof and and relational value. ⁓ and have sympathy for the people on the other side of those hiring portals because it’s like Windows two thousand and those things.

Half of ⁓ and and and you know, how do you look through that re that many resumes? You can’t possibly, right? You’ve got an extra hour a week to go through those at best. ⁓ and so it’s people whose names, right? And even if it’s the somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody, like activate those those weaker connections because what we have to do is prove that we’re human, and then also that that we have that value, right? That that ’cause you can’t tell by the the you know, resumes anymore or or

Or anything, right? And on the hiring side now, I’m hearing in this I mean it has to be right. So students are saying things like they’ll have ⁓ you know it’ll be an AI thing and it’ll ask them a question and then it’ll give them like 30 seconds and record a video. ⁓ and they’re and and the report back is that it’s not really great user experience on the applicant side, as I would imagine, right? You don’t have time to prepare, it’s moving through. ⁓ and so, you know, I even recommend ⁓ becoming a thought leader.

Sarah (33:01)

Yeah.

Eric Shumake (33:08)

Right? So getting out on social media and even publishing video, because the reason they’re using video to capture is because it’s so it’s such rich media content, they can capture, you know, how well that you can communicate your ideas and your thinking, right? And they’re trying to find a way where they get something that proves that that people are human outside of that blizzard of AI resumes. ⁓ so it while it’s not ⁓ it’s not a fun process, you know, one prepare for it.

and two, get ahead of it by putting out video content if you can.

Sarah (33:39)

Hmm. Those are those are such great tips. I want to come back to a few of them, but the the through line for me was how you said you have to think of your career as a series of gigs, you know, and I I love that framing. And I think the definition of gig, like you said, it could be a full-time role. It could be a contract role, it could be a contract that’s 12 months or turns into 24 months or something that’s that’s three months. And

One of the things that I tell people in my career strategy lab program is I try and think of myself and the coaches who work alongside me as the product manager of everyone’s job search because they’re too close to their job search to product manage it. And that’s why people get on the hamster wheel of portfolio redesigns or apply to 300 jobs and just keep hoping for the best type thing. So I’m curious if maybe you go you and I can play out.

Being the product manager of someone’s job search who is in the scenario of they have been laid off for, I don’t know, six months, 12 months, something like that. They’re still not getting interviews. ⁓ how could we prioritize some of the things that they could do right now? because I could imagine someone listening to this is thinking, okay, I gotta.

Eric Shumake (34:46)

Mm-hmm.

Sarah (35:04)

Focus on getting a full time gig, but now I have to make a consultancy. And then I gotta get consulting clients to really have a consultancy. And now I’m gonna start a YouTube video or YouTube channel and start teaching on Maven.com or something, right? So to help ⁓ people from falling into that quite literal spiral, ⁓ what are a couple of things that you might

Eric Shumake (35:24)

Yes.

Sarah (35:27)

prioritize as someone’s product manager or maybe questions you would ask them before you would even want to prioritize it.

Eric Shumake (35:35)

Nice. No, good. ⁓ you know, I think ’cause I get this a lot. People are like, look, I I don’t have this much you know, I don’t have a lot of runway. I’ve I’ve I’ve got a visa that’s renewing, I’ve I I’ve got you know, a mortgage payment I have to make. And so I I you know, I get I I get a a a range of of you know ⁓ how do we say urgency, right? And so to the most urgent folks, the simplest plan I have is this, which is you wanna talk to folks, right? And so the ⁓

The out of all the questions when you reach out to people, hey, can you take a look at this and give me feedback on my portfolio? Can you pass this to the ⁓ hiring manager, right? All of those are tough questions and they get a low response rate, right? Because the thing I would do is start reaching out to people directly and trying to have conversations. and what I’ve s what what I’ve stumbled into ⁓ and works like a charm is the very, very simple question of, hey, how do you like working there? Right?

Sarah (36:31)

Mm.

Eric Shumake (36:32)

It’s like what you’d ask somebody next to them at the water cooler, and so you’re not asking, you’re not extracting any value. You’re not asking for them to do anything, provide value first. You’re subtly providing value because they’re gonna respond one of two ways. quite often it’s amazing we’re doing really great things, or ⁓ hey, you know what? it’s usually pretty good, but let me tell you about this Tuesday. Right. They’ll either they’ll they’ll either ⁓ you know, kind of you know, ⁓ humble brag or vent about it. But either way you have the conversation.

Because we can control activity, we can’t control outcomes, right? And there’s an interesting thing about nature about the power of tens, right? and this shows up in biological systems, this shows up in like bulk mailing. Like this this idea is is basically this. If you if you make a hundred contacts, right? So if you make if you go out and ask a hundred people on LinkedIn, hey, how do you like working there? Right? Like let’s say you make you pick your top twenty five companies.

and ask four people at each of those companies how they like working there over a period of a week or two, whatever, you know, however much you have. ⁓ the that’s gonna get you so much traction as far as people saying, Hey, I like it, boom boom boom, you get in those conversations. you always keep an eye out for providing value, right? So if they’re working on things or you can look at their social media content again. ⁓ but, you know, ⁓

‘Cause you really do, I think the the one thing you have to do if you had to focus the is you know, okay, you’re contacting people, that’s part of it, but then you also have to have your profile, you have to have your social kind of media and I I recommend going all in on LinkedIn and LinkedIn only. ⁓ you know, you you have to have that tailored in and focused, right? And it has to show that you’ve been focusing on this and solving these problems a bit over time.

if you’re shifting into a new vertical, you can do it easily like I you know, when if you get that if you wanted to move into healthcare, ⁓ you could do take that that HIPAA course, right, and just post off that one thirty dollar course, you could post a month’s worth of really amazing stuff just about HIPAA compliance, right? So you have to do two things. You have to you have to sh s show that social proof, that relational proof, right? of of what you do.

But then that has to meet with the the the right ecosystem, right? Or the right curated environment. And so yeah, if I had to make something happen, I would get focused about the kind of role that I wanted. I’d target twenty-five companies around that role. ⁓ I’d hit them up with four contacts within a week or so. ⁓ and then I’d I’d, you know, and then I would just kind of turn that activity over.

Sarah (39:12)

I I completely agree on what you said around like you would go all in on LinkedIn and LinkedIn only. ⁓ I think LinkedIn, you know, people love it, people hate it. At the end of the day, that is where recruiters and hiring managers hang out. And what, you know, sales and marketing 101 says like you have to hit the right people with the right time with the right message. And the right people, if you’re seeking a job.

are on LinkedIn and they have LinkedIn open in their browser tab all day long, right? And one of the questions I’m asked, and I’m sure you are too, is around, well, how what should I post on LinkedIn? I don’t have time for LinkedIn. And it just comes down to visibility. It’s not about becoming an influencer necessarily, whatever that really means. ⁓ and it could be as simple as, like you said, take this HIPAA course and twice, three times a week.

Post a takeaway, post one thing. It doesn’t have to be like a a masterfully written essay that’s like on medium and goes viral. You know what I mean? So it’s visibility.

Eric Shumake (40:21)

Absolutely.

I couldn’t agree more. I think it you know, it’s it’s it’s like ⁓

Sarah, it’s like it’s like meditation, right? If the only wrong meditation is the one we don’t do. I have this story that was hilarious that ⁓ you know, I I posted it I posted something about ⁓ cap ⁓ capital punching down on labor, ⁓ which was not really in, you know, directly in my wheelhouse, right? And it was I think it was on a Erica Hall post. ⁓ and and ⁓ and I you know, I remember posting and being like, Come on, Eric, reel it in, stay focused on the healthcare, right? ⁓

⁓ but then that got me a contact from ⁓ from a agency and that got me into ⁓ conversation and work with Cygna of all places. ⁓ and so so th truly there are no bad posts, right? ⁓ and so you know that being said, ⁓ keep it easy, right? So start one day a week, just do Wednesdays. ⁓ something that helps me is I can batch write them. ⁓ another

Sarah (41:26)

Mm-hmm.

Eric Shumake (41:26)

That helps is that I can schedule it for ⁓ Monday, Wednesday, Friday, right? So you can do that when you’re feeling inspired because some days, you know, I’m not feeling up to it. ⁓ but the alternative is this is, you know, because everybody’s like, Well, I don’t have time to then to work on the social media. ⁓ but I would do that more than like having talked to so many people about hiring as it is now, it’s called I call it smiling into the void.

⁓ where people are just like you’re putting all this good energy out and you’re, you know, ⁓ you know ⁓ you know, doing the cover letters and all in into a system that’s designed not at all to respond to you. ⁓ and so if you’re doing the thought leadership, if you’re you know, out there being a lighthouse, it’s totally different. You get to decide what you’re focused on. You get to decide, you know, you i it’s not somebody saying we can’t do this with this or we can’t do that with you know, right? You’re you’re

in a way immediately employing yourself. ⁓ and so, you know, i i I wouldn’t send out a a a a ⁓ application these days without at least three relational elements, right? I mean, like in three, you know, three things, three people on the hiring team. you know, so yeah, I think you know, one, there’s no wrong post. Get out there and do them. ⁓ and two, yeah, don’t worry so much what people are thinking about you.

⁓ really focus on the value and how much you like them and want to help them ⁓ and and and the value of what you’re providing and and then that that gets it gets much easier.

Sarah (43:03)

It it’s like a muscle, right? Like when you first start working out, it’s tough and then it gets easier. I am just getting back into working out after surgery seven weeks ago. And last night I could barely sleep because my arms were like aching so much. But it’s gonna get easier. And I think one to use a healthcare anal or health analogy, but I think you said there are no wrong posts. And I look at showing up on LinkedIn, ⁓

As compound interest in my own career. And this is not just specific to me posting about Career Strategy Lab, but when I think back to moments in my career, even in 2011, I just remembered a post from 2011. ⁓ it went pretty viral on Twitter. That was big at the time. And that single post I can attribute to like amazing.

Kind of milestones in my career. One of them was people from General Assembly reached out to me, asked me to ⁓ speak at an event. And then that led to them reaching out to see if I wanted to create the curriculum for and teach their very first iteration of their 12-week program in New York City. ⁓ I also did that in collaboration with one other person. ⁓ but if I had not written that article and

put those thoughts out there, we literally might not be having this conversation today. So it’s, and I will say, back to compound interest, for years, even until you know last year, people contact me about that article. And that’s not the only piece of content that’s happened with, but ⁓ it it it can, it can bring value years later.

Eric Shumake (44:34)

Hate.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think the first time I got in a role where they they actually wanted me to publish thought leadership, I was like, Huh? And I was like, This is fantastic. I’m never gonna stop doing this. Like Yeah.

Sarah (45:04)

Yeah.

Well, and some companies, I believe United Airlines is one of them. They are encouraging and don’t quote me, but I think helping educate employees as to why they should be posting thought leadership in public. One of the reasons is obviously it helps attract talent.

To the company, which reduces time to hire, reduces costs to hire, et cetera. So full full circle back to results,

I want to touch on AI in user research, because I know you are.

exploring and implementing a lot in that space. So one of the questions that comes up all the time is if I’m a job search or if I’m happily employed right now, what AI skills experience should I be learning right now? Because I’m even told by some people I don’t want to apply yet. I want to go get XYZ AI certificates or something. And I’m not sure that you should

hold on applying until you have that experience. But what what’s your take on what skills UX people should be learning regarding AI and even specific to user research if you want to get that deep?

Eric Shumake (46:30)

Yeah, for sure. ⁓ you know, I don’t see any percentage in, you know, i i i in in being anti AI, right? I just don’t see any business, you know, I d I don’t recommend that.

The next thing out of my mouth though is where not to use AI, right? So anywhere I’m at, I’ve got like three or four cautionary tales of types of AI in healthcare. Like they’re rolling out things and there’s like alert fatigue because you get these blizzards of false alerts is a super common thing when they try to insert AI. ⁓ and so it’s it’s both, right? It’s it’s a matter of yes, right, it’s great, it can help democratize things, it can help, you know, accelerate things, but it’s not good here and it’s definitely not good here.

Right. And I think that’s a good position overall, because then you get, you know, everybody kind of takes you seriously. ⁓ and then, you know, in in UX, I think, you know, everybody should be learning probably vibe coding, right? I think vibe coding is a bit of the new wireframing or it’s a bit of a corollary to wireframing. ⁓ it’s you know, it it the students I th I train a lot of students who are, you know, going from Figma into, you know, some of these builders like V Zero and Versell and Lovable some of them.

⁓ and there’s this kind of floaty feeling, right? Of of of collaboration as opposed to, you know, waterfall kind of, you know, each pixel control. And so learning how to do that because what stakeholders are wanting now is they’re wanting people to spin up like, you know, these kind of you know 3D models that aren’t just like a clickable prototype, but actually has the database functionality and all of that. So I recommend that everybody start goofing around with those. Build one or two interesting things.

and that might get you more ⁓ that might get you actually more ⁓ credibility than a certificate, right? So you can like the first one I did, I spun it up in like two hours and that became actually that combined with the how do you break into UX question to become the that you know the the most popular class over five hundred alumni. I mean I can’t even believe it. It sort of actually it it it pulled me along, right? I mean, you know you ran into something cool if it’s like I was like, Okay, I guess I’m doing this like ⁓ and so

You know, and and so the I have the students use AI to build apps that use AI, right? But there’s areas to use it and areas to not use it. So I recommend using it and building with it. And then in research it’s a similar thing. Like I I’ve been approached by a number of companies that are doing these ⁓ what are they, artificial users, ⁓ and they’re wanting to be pilot students and all that, right? And I don’t I’ve I don’t know if you’ve seen like Erica Hall and some of the old schoolers like blow those things up. And I mean I have too, but

Sarah (48:46)

Hm. Yeah.

Yeah. Synthetic I think is yeah.

Eric Shumake (49:09)

You know, there’s who is it? I think it’s Paul Paul Whelans out. You there’s there’s some people who are also making a credible case for it, right? And again, I’m like, yes, you just have to use it right. So the way I teach it is in automating things like ⁓ things that you would have to spend time the doing secondary desk research at. So, you know, I I I taught a little workshop and helped people set up agentic AI, and what it does is it scans all the media sources, it scans all the competitors.

It runs at five in the morning when the credits are cheap and then it pr it writes a a report to their ⁓ desktop and then it will write a draft email. And so then so many of the PM this was more focused at PMs because you those PMs are out there giving that weekly w you know market summary or the weekly weather report. It’s good for that.

But in no way like AI needs to what what I want is AI that enables more human to human conversations, that handles the booking, that handles the rescheduling, right, that handles all the all the noise, ⁓ and lets more people talk to more people because, you know, ⁓ that’s I think still the gold standard and I don’t think that that’s gonna change. So I’m wary of anything that emul you know, that would generate ⁓ generate its own ⁓

you know, speculative data. But you could do something that’s more interesting of let’s say you do proper research and then we’ve got some, you know, personas, and those personas have a lot more data that is in just that one summary page. Somebody bringing that to life so that like, you know, ⁓ stakeholders could ask questions of that persona based on real, not fabricated data. That’s interesting to me, right? It could still hallucinate, but that’s at least like to me, I’m like, that’s I I’d I’d spend some time looking at that, right?

Sarah (50:27)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Eric Shumake (50:55)

⁓

but I think the thing that wins with ⁓ with stakeholders these days is yes AI, but it’s yes AI and me, right? So it’s me, my my ⁓ you know, discernment, right? My judgment and expertise and oversight. ⁓ and then the AI for productivity, for volume, for the fact that we are all being asked to do a job and a half in these full time roles now and not being resourced more time.

Like all the researchers went away and everybody’s a researcher now, but you know, other I mean beyond the beyond the confirmation, you know, bias risk, right? you know, was that even added to people’s job descriptions and and resource? Generally no, right? So everybody’s just k kinda kinda doing that. and so it’s an idea of saying, like, it’s me and my robot buddy did this, right? So yeah, I think that’s the best

Sarah (51:37)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think like you said, using using AI, ⁓ creating this agent to be doing desk research and bringing you, you know, a competitor report. ⁓ maybe it’s pulling press releases or who knows what, you know, every morning. I think that is a a great example of how you can use AI to to help offload some of the stuff that would just be very time consuming for you. So you’re freeing up time to do other things. And I think

In a job search, that would be a great example of what a recruiter or hiring manager would want to hear, like how you are using AI to save time and money so you can use your time and the company’s money to do other things that AI maybe can’t do well to begin with, right? ⁓ okay, we have time for one question. Everyone was a little slow to get questions in, so I’m gonna go in the order that we received them, but Williams is really interesting and not one that we’ve

Eric Shumake (52:34)

Perfect. Yes.

Sarah (52:46)

had before that I can recall, but he wants to know, can we talk more a little bit about neurodivergence in the workplace? Can it hurt or help if one chooses to d disclose their neurodivergence in the job application?

Eric Shumake (53:00)

So I I’m not hesitant on the federal reporting, right? So when it asks if there’s a disability, so ⁓ I’m on the autism spectrum and then I’ve also over over my lifespan just to normalize it, I’ve struggled with depression. ⁓ and so technically ⁓ you know, ⁓ handicap and and ⁓ certainly early on, no. I I mean b like, you know, ten ten or more years ago

we weren’t even allowed to have feelings from any race like right. and so ⁓ I I would keep all of that to myself. and then more so I will report it on the federal reporting on the job application, just to have that record there. ⁓ and because I feel like it would be dishonest to to not report that way. ⁓ but then

Boy, it really it really like I didn’t mention it at the the last gig, ⁓ ’cause that place was wound pretty tight. I’ve mentioned it at places and it’s been sort of performatively embraced, but then ⁓ then I’m still filling in the blanks about things, you know. ⁓ I mean it’s it’s nothing too overt. but ⁓ I I mean I I I I

Sarah (54:05)

Mm.

Eric Shumake (54:17)

I wish that I had a a a you know, ⁓ a more positive answer. I think that I you know, I work a lot with with masking it. I have ever since growing up. I mean and the right answer is that one should be able to do that anywhere and and and I wonder if like the places I disclose then people understand me better. ⁓

And and and so, you know, maybe that’s better overall. Like, you know, the trade off is they think that there’s something maybe different about me, but then they they also they understand, you know, that it is a superpower. Like for me, you know, the that’s the reason I I have this sort of always have this objective, like kind of ⁓ third party perspective on on, you know, like it makes me a much better researcher and much more sensitive and much more aware of bias. ⁓ but

I think yeah, and the answer is I’m still obviously I’m still afraid at some places to bring it up. yeah.

Sarah (55:18)

Well, I think I think too it’s a really ⁓ the way that companies and people respond to if you disclose that is a great foreshadowing of what it would be like if you got hired there, right? So I think it’s kind of on a case by case basis if you disclose that or not. But I think, you know, every touch point in the job search is an opportunity to be.

gathering information. It’s like a research project on what those people are like at those companies and how they might be, you know, on a day-to-day basis. So I would I would just encourage people to pay attention to how how recruiters, hiring managers, whomever, you know, react to that. And that’s probably a clue to not ignore, you know.

Eric Shumake (56:10)

No, right. You could it could be a red red flag and you can definitely dodge a bullet with that, right? ⁓ yeah,

Sarah (56:14)

Yeah.

Eric, this was super helpful. ⁓ I I love that we address kind of specializing versus generalizing, ⁓ how specialists can transfer their knowledge from one industry to another, et cetera. ⁓ and I really loved the part about ⁓ thinking is your career is a series of of gigs.

I think it’s kind of an insurance policy for your for your career too. So for everyone listening, we will drop links in the show notes ⁓ to Eric’s Maven course, to Eric’s website, to Eric’s LinkedIn. And that is all, everyone.